Outlander on Starz

[AuntCloud]

On 9/10/2017 at 9:31 PM, Destiny said:

Just started watching the season premiere and I need a hug now. I knew what to expect but still, the opening scene hurt my heart. 

Hugs coming right at ya, and a little bird to make you smile over the spoiled milk.

What an episode. Zero sex scenes. Wardrobe consisting of bloody, dirty rags and horrible 40's maternity wear and house coats. And I couldn't keep my eyes from the screen. Yes, there will be a *lot* of pain and suffering. Which will make episode 5 all the more gut-punch amazing. 

[Letgo]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 11:15 AM, AuntCloud said:

However - I'm referring to a certain scene at the tail-end of Jamie's time at Helwater, when Lord John reassures him about Willie's well-being. It will take a certain amount of courage of the producers to stay true to the scene as written in the book. 

Unfortunately, that scene is not in Voyager, to the best of my recollection. It is in The Scottish Prisoner, I believe. I could be wrong on this, and I hope I am, but I saw this issue mentioned elsewhere, too. The show has the rights to the first 7 books in the Outlander series, but not to any of the others. I don't think it can be added unless some special agreement is made. I would sure like to see it, though. It would be such a great scene between Jamie and John.

Loved episodes 1 and 2. Jamie's despair and loneliness was heart wrenching. Loved seeing Lallybroch alive again. Those twin beds! Poor Frank. Claire's maternity smocks.  Jamie and Mary...it must have taken a lot for Jamie to be with a woman out of wedlock. Fergus grew up a bit. Can't wait for #3.

I am really enjoying the scenes from the 1950s. It's like revisiting my childhood, except that we didn't have a huge home and no one has clothing as nice as Claire's. Lol

[AuntCloud]

3 hours ago, Letgo said:

Unfortunately, that scene is not in Voyager, to the best of my recollection. 

<snip> I haven't read the Scottish Prisoner yet (have finished the main 8 novels, moved on to Lord John, didn't really enjoy the Private Matter, read the Hellfire Club, and switched to Seven Stones to Stand or Fall), so the kiss must have been in Voyager! If anyone can find the quote it would be awesome.

3 hours ago, Letgo said:

Loved episodes 1 and 2. Jamie's despair and loneliness was heart wrenching. Loved seeing Lallybroch alive again. Those twin beds! Poor Frank. Claire's maternity smocks.  Jamie and Mary...it must have taken a lot for Jamie to be with a woman out of wedlock. Fergus grew up a bit. Can't wait for #3.

I am really enjoying the scenes from the 1950s. It's like revisiting my childhood, except that we didn't have a huge home and no one has clothing as nice as Claire's. Lol

Caitriona Balfe's interview with Elle about life with Frank was fantastic, and she gave such great points - such as, closing her eyes when having sweet fellowship with Frank was not simply "let's pretend it's Jamie".

Jamie's subdued self was indeed heart-wrenching, and I think it really showed the extent of Jenny's worry about him and a good precursor of things to come. He was so different from his fiery self, even when he was growling at Fergus for finding the gun it was without his usual enthusiasm. Laura Donnely killed it this episode, not that she usually doesn't. I dread then next episode and at the same time can't wait. There's something about this story that makes you so gosh darn invested in it. 

[Destiny]

5 minutes ago, AuntCloud said:

Caitriona Balfe's interview with Elle about life with Frank was fantastic, and she gave such great points - such as, closing her eyes when having sweet fellowship with Frank was not simply "let's pretend it's Jamie".

Can you link me to that interview? I'm interested to read that, because that was one of the things that really annoyed me based on how I read the book and I want to see if our views match.

(tl;dr, imho it's not just about Jamie, it's also about her BJR PTSD, with a side of giving a life she hates in a place she doesn't want.)

[AuntCloud]

Your servant, mum. Spoiler: you were correct. Are you Cait?

http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a12275853/caitriona-balfe-outlander-claire-frank-relationship/

I want to buy her a good bottle of wine and ask her to become my BFF. 

 

[Destiny]

5 minutes ago, AuntCloud said:

Spoiler: you were correct. Are you Cait?

I mean, seriously, if I was in her place, I don't think I could get past the BJR stuff enough to ever be in the same room as Frank, let alone have sex and raise a child together. Separate from what he did to Jamie, look at what he did to HER. He beat her, tried repeatedly to rape her, threatened her and was generally a bit o human trash. That doesn't even cover the horrors he visited on a man she loves, and that she had to clean up. 

It actually really bothered me that both of their unhappiness was seemingly framed as missing each other. Sure, that's true, but it was about so much more too. 

[AuntCloud]

Just by reading the books you wouldn't know they were so similar as to be mistaken for the same person. Tobias does an amazing job at portraying both so differently, and I'm a bit face blind so I definitely see Frank and BJR as two separate entities. Claire must know this in her mind, but the images still creep up whether she likes it or not.

The sad thing is that it really isn't Frank's fault. He was at a complete loss when Claire first went through the stones. He was shocked to see her back three years later. Their marriage were at a precarious spot when they were trying to re-connect in 1945, but he wasn't by any means the bad guy. He was a decent guy and was dumped unceremoniously in favour of a man who swept his wife off her feet within a few short weeks. At the end of the day, he wasn't deeply, totally loved as Claire or Jamie were, and it makes me sad. 

I believe I'm a decent human being and quite a nice wife to my husband. I make our life together and our family a priority. I think I'm a pretty good listener and his safe haven where he can always have my support and love. I would be absolutely crushed if he told me there's nothing wrong with me, there's just someone else who is So. Much. Better. I don't think I would offer to raise the child they had together while sponsoring him through med school. 

[Destiny]

See, I hated Frank from moment one, before we even met Jamie. There was something about his automatically jumping to the "did you cheat" conclusion early on that set off alarm bells with me, an I was completely unsurprised to see him turn into a cheating asshole. TBH, I think that would always would have happened, even if Claire had never gone back. 

TV frank is actually getting a much better deal than book frank did. He's far more sympathetic than book frank ever was. I don't think his agreement to raise Brianna was so much about Claire as it was Brianna, and I think it was about his desire for a child. That's not to say that he didn't do the right thing, but I feel like he did it for him, not for Claire.

I can talk about why I hate frank for hours, and BFF is unavailable due to hurricane. 

[AuntCloud]

18 hours ago, Destiny said:

See, I hated Frank from moment one, before we even met Jamie. There was something about his automatically jumping to the "did you cheat" conclusion early on that set off alarm bells with me, an I was completely unsurprised to see him turn into a cheating asshole. TBH, I think that would always would have happened, even if Claire had never gone back. 

Interesting... I see that Frank is much more subdued than Jamie, a quiet intellectual rather than a larger-than-life hunky warrior with a tendency for a wee bit of over-the-top drama. However, I have never seen him as an asshole. He and Claire may not have been the best match, as both are very good at hiding their feelings or ignoring them altogether. He may have never appreciated Claire's doctoring skills (maybe because he wasn't getting himself hurt and requiring them every 30 minutes...), but in the very first episode they were trying so, so hard. 

He was cleanly rejected by the woman he believed loved him. He watched her grieve for the person she truly loved, knowing that she has never and will never grieve for him like that. It hurts, and pain turns people nasty. 

(Disclaimer: Jamie is one fantastic character. I'm shamelessly fangirling over him <the book character, as well as Series Jamie>, and my appreciation of him has grown from one book to the next. I can't wait to see him in book 9, further building his relationship with <redacted> and <redacted>, two important characters that he hasn't seen enough of in books 7-8). 

[Destiny]

Before I comment, you have read the books right? I don’t want to spoil future things.

[AuntCloud]

3 hours ago, Destiny said:

Before I comment, you have read the books right? I don’t want to spoil future things.

Read: main novels 1-8

The Private Matter

The Hellfire Club

Currently reading the Succubus

Have read Virgins and Fugitive Green in Seven Stones 

Haven't read: The Brotherhood of the Blade, the Scottish Prisoner, The Haunted Soldier (in the Hand of Devils collections), and the rest of the stories in Seven Stones. 

[Destiny]

I haven't jumped of the novella bridge, and tbh, I probably won't. I didn't actually plan on reading the books till the show was over, but then "I'll thank ye to take your hands off my wife happened," and I read all of them in a week.

I think we saw evidence of his nastiness and arrogance early on in the books, even before Claire disappeared. He was very much treating her like the little wifey, I think there was evidence of him cheating, that I mentioned earlier, and I found him arrogant and unlikeable.  I do agree that he is a very different character than Jamie, but I think it's deeper than that. Frank wants Claire to fit into his little perfect wife box, not make waves, whereas Jamie seemed to support her becoming who she was meant to be, and supporting that.

I will grant you that TV!Frank did try hard, but I feel like there's no evidence of that in Book!Frank.

Unrelated: if you've read Fiery Cross, what did you think of it? I found it boring and barely readable.

 

[AuntCloud]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

I haven't jumped of the novella bridge, and tbh, I probably won't. I didn't actually plan on reading the books till the show was over, but then "I'll thank ye to take your hands off my wife happened," and I read all of them in a week.

I think we saw evidence of his nastiness and arrogance early on in the books, even before Claire disappeared. He was very much treating her like the little wifey, I think there was evidence of him cheating, that I mentioned earlier, and I found him arrogant and unlikeable.  I do agree that he is a very different character than Jamie, but I think it's deeper than that. Frank wants Claire to fit into his little perfect wife box, not make waves, whereas Jamie seemed to support her becoming who she was meant to be, and supporting that.

I will grant you that TV!Frank did try hard, but I feel like there's no evidence of that in Book!Frank.

Unrelated: if you've read Fiery Cross, what did you think of it? I found it boring and barely readable.

 

I'll read the books again, but in all honesty, especially after reading book 8, I do believe Frank deeply cared - in his own way. Yes, he wasn't aware of PostWar!Claire and how much of an autonomous person she has become. But he did acknowledge her gift of healing and her calling. 

As for the Fiery Cross, I wish you could read Hebrew so I could send you the review I wrote for my Facebook group. In short, I enjoyed the slow pace. I enjoyed seeing J&C settled, surrounded by the family they have struggled so hard to build. I loved seeing Jamie regain his status as Laird and how he just seemed to find his place. Claire has got her garden and her surgery. Bree, Roger and Wee Jemmy pop by every time they don't feel like cooking breakfast or dinner at home. Jamie and Roger get closer and Jamie looks like he (gasp) trusts Roger. There are a few scary moments but more sweet, cozy, comfy and funny family moments. No one goes through the stones, unlike all books before and after this one. The Fraser-MacKenzie clan stays put mostly in one place from start to finish. Things get shaken up so badly in the upcoming books, I grabbed at every moment that disaster wasn't striking.

I skimmed through some of the slower parts but focused on the more moving, charged parts. And that sex scene in the window towards the end, plus the ending sentence, did it for me. 

[samurai_sarah]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

(snip)

He was very much treating her like the little wifey, I think there was evidence of him cheating, that I mentioned earlier, and I found him arrogant and unlikeable.  I do agree that he is a very different character than Jamie, but I think it's deeper than that. Frank wants Claire to fit into his little perfect wife box, not make waves, whereas Jamie seemed to support her becoming who she was meant to be, and supporting that.

(snip)

Happens in Book 1, before Claire goes through the stones. It's never spelled out. He tells Claire that he'd be okay with her cheating, and she lies awake later wondering about him.

[Letgo]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 11:15 AM, AuntCloud said:

However - I'm referring to a certain scene at the tail-end of Jamie's time at Helwater, when Lord John reassures him about Willie's well-being. It will take a certain amount of courage of the producers to stay true to the scene as written in the book. 

OH, I may be wrong with my earlier post! Depending on which scene you mean... If it's the one with the near fight between Jamie and John, well, that is in the other book. If it is the one with the kiss, where they discuss Willie and John's marriage, then yes, it IS in Voyager. But now I'm thinking you mean the latter scene. That really HAS to be in the show, I would think. The subject comes up again in the books and it is why Jamie trusts John. 

Waiting for each episode is so hard. I want to see all of them NOW.

[nolongerIFBx]

On 8/10/2017 at 3:47 PM, AuntCloud said:

Indeed, and shows the seriousness of his intentions with a kiss. For some reason I believe there was less debate about showing the very explicit violence and torture in the final two episodes of season 1 than about this one kiss. 

Did it meet your hopes?

[nolongerIFBx]

On 9/21/2017 at 11:25 AM, AuntCloud said:

Interesting... I see that Frank is much more subdued than Jamie, a quiet intellectual rather than a larger-than-life hunky warrior with a tendency for a wee bit of over-the-top drama. However, I have never seen him as an asshole. He and Claire may not have been the best match, as both are very good at hiding their feelings or ignoring them altogether. He may have never appreciated Claire's doctoring skills (maybe because he wasn't getting himself hurt and requiring them every 30 minutes...), but in the very first episode they were trying so, so hard. 

He was cleanly rejected by the woman he believed loved him. He watched her grieve for the person she truly loved, knowing that she has never and will never grieve for him like that. It hurts, and pain turns people nasty. 

. . .

I was so disappointed by how Frank was written (can't say how he was portrayed because Tobias did a great job) in Episode 303! I did not get that from reading Frank in the books. I did think he probably cheated, but he was truly discreet (why am I defending a cheater? but even Diana G. said she never conclusively wrote that he had cheated) but I also think that he truly supported Claire as a doctor. When she wanted to quit because Brianna needed her, he didn't let her and took over caring for Brianna in the afternoons. Show-Frank would have done this to steal Brianna's affection but I don't think that's why Book-Frank did it. Book-Frank left Claire clues to Jamie to be found after his death (and who can really blame him for not handing it to her while he was still alive!). Anxious to see if Show-Frank does that, because it might redeem him a little. I've agreed with others that the writers were trying to really make the connection between Jack in the 18th century and Frank in the 20th but Frank's character was the loser.

What I liked in Episode 304 is Brianna realizing that she never really knew her mother. Claire loves Brianna so very much but could never show it because being around Brianna only made her think of Jamie so she held herself away not realizing that in protecting herself she was hurting the one she loved the most (in the 20th century anyway).

Totally cried when Jamie left Willie. 

[AuntCloud]

On 10/2/2017 at 12:41 PM, nolongerIFBx said:

I was so disappointed by how Frank was written (can't say how he was portrayed because Tobias did a great job) in Episode 303! I did not get that from reading Frank in the books. I did think he probably cheated, but he was truly discreet (why am I defending a cheater? but even Diana G. said she never conclusively wrote that he had cheated) but I also think that he truly supported Claire as a doctor. When she wanted to quit because Brianna needed her, he didn't let her and took over caring for Brianna in the afternoons. Show-Frank would have done this to steal Brianna's affection but I don't think that's why Book-Frank did it. Book-Frank left Claire clues to Jamie to be found after his death (and who can really blame him for not handing it to her while he was still alive!). Anxious to see if Show-Frank does that, because it might redeem him a little. I've agreed with others that the writers were trying to really make the connection between Jack in the 18th century and Frank in the 20th but Frank's character was the loser.

What I liked in Episode 304 is Brianna realizing that she never really knew her mother. Claire loves Brianna so very much but could never show it because being around Brianna only made her think of Jamie so she held herself away not realizing that in protecting herself she was hurting the one she loved the most (in the 20th century anyway).

Totally cried when Jamie left Willie. 

Yes, everything you said.

First, regarding the non-kiss: the show had to squeeze a sizable chunk of content and emotion into 55 minutes, including opening and closing credits. The books tell much more explicitly the depth of attraction of Lord John to Jamie, and also his realization that any attempt to act on it would be very hazardous to his health as well as a death blow to their friendship. Jamie is very much aware of this, and offers his body to John not as a thank-you but as a test of character to the one who will be a surrogate father to who he believes to be his only living child. The kiss was a token of thanks and appreciation.

As for Frank, I'm with you. Regarding the cheating - Claire was very clear about who her true love was. Their marriage would not have been all sunshine and roses had Frank never cheated. Given that divorce was not an option, Frank did what he could to get through the day - it's not that Claire was all there for him all the time. He was a supportive husband and a good father, and was portrayed as a total douche in the show. 

Have you noticed that in episodes 3-4 there were hints of Jamie and Claire seeing each other in visions or dreams, and no little messages such as the rabbit or the bird? They have both accepted the fact that the love of their life is truly gone, and seeing them live in quiet resignation is even worse than seeing them in anguish in episodes 1-2.

Onwards to episode 5... then a two week agonizing wait before THE episode.

[nolongerIFBx]

Can't wait! Even though I don't think there's any way that it can live up to expectations!

 

[AuntCloud]

11 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

Can't wait! Even though I don't think there's any way that it can live up to expectations!

 

Je Suis Prest for anything! After twenty years of heartache, hardship, lots and lots of personal change and growth, not to mention parenting - that were spent completely apart - there's no way a reunion can NOT be as awkward as they come. There will be tears. There will be shock. There will be lots and lots of awkwardness and reconciling the middle-aged stranger to the beloved you have kept in your heart for twenty years. No rainbows, unicorns, violins or sunsets. There will be a spilled ale pot and a pair of wet breeches. 

[nolongerIFBx]

And then-- the breeches come off! That part of the book makes me laugh.

[Destiny]

Him thinking he pissed himself will never not be funny.

[Letgo]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 1:51 PM, Destiny said:

 

I think we saw evidence of his nastiness and arrogance early on in the books, even before Claire disappeared. He was very much treating her like the little wifey, I think there was evidence of him cheating, that I mentioned earlier, and I found him arrogant and unlikeable.  I do agree that he is a very different character than Jamie, but I think it's deeper than that. Frank wants Claire to fit into his little perfect wife box, not make waves, whereas Jamie seemed to support her becoming who she was meant to be, and supporting that.

I will grant you that TV!Frank did try hard, but I feel like there's no evidence of that in Book!Frank.

 

I have always thought that Frank was pretty much a man of his time. I didn't think he was arrogant or nasty, but simply a man of the era. He was also 12 years older than Claire, who was barely 19 when they married. The day to day business of marriage was really only for two years because of the war intervening and separating them for the next six years. So Frank would naturally expect Claire to be his perfect wife afterward-he would crave "normalcy" after the stress of his wartime espionage service.

I wonder if the marriage would have survived even if Claire had not gone through the stones. She clearly would need something more than being a faculty wife after her wartime nursing experiences. Frank just didn't "get" Claire the way Jamie did. He wanted and expected her to be the wife he had before the war. I think he would have really struggled "allowing" her to work as a nurse or attend medical school if she had not disappeared. That wasn't what most women did in the 1940s. He, and other men, expected to return to their prewar lives. However, war changes even those who remain at home and nurse wounded soldiers or build ships and planes. 

I think Frank loved Claire and could not understand what happened with Jamie. He thought she'd get over him. And I just can't see how he really believed her tale of time travel-unless he knew some secrets from his wartime work and we just don't know about that yet. I mean, can you imagine your spouse coming home after being missing for three years, then suddenly reappearing and telling  you about going back in time 200+ years, getting married, falling in love, trying to stop the Jacobite Rebellion, and so on? I did not think the show was very believable when Frank claimed to buy her story right away. That just isn't logical. I wish they at least would have had him tell Rev. Wakefield that he was humoring her. 

I always thought that both Claire and Frank tried in their marriage, as far as both were able, but it was doomed. She didn't love him as a wife should, and as she once had. He couldn't really devote himself to a woman for whom he would always be second choice. But Frank never struck me as a bad guy. He didn't deserve to lose his wife's love. Yes, he was a man of the 40s, but that wasn't a bad thing in the 1940s!

[nolongerIFBx]

On 10/4/2017 at 5:41 PM, Destiny said:

Him thinking he pissed himself will never not be funny.

They kept that part in! i wondered if they would.

[Letgo]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:41 AM, nolongerIFBx said:

I was so disappointed by how Frank was written (can't say how he was portrayed because Tobias did a great job) in Episode 303! I did not get that from reading Frank in the books. I did think he probably cheated, but he was truly discreet (why am I defending a cheater? but even Diana G. said she never conclusively wrote that he had cheated) but I also think that he truly supported Claire as a doctor. When she wanted to quit because Brianna needed her, he didn't let her and took over caring for Brianna in the afternoons. 

Diana says she never conclusively wrote that Frank cheated, but FRANK HIMSELF DID. I really think she forgets what she wrote. Frank said in a letter to Rev. Wakefield that he had been unfaithful. Why would he write that if he had not actually cheated?  I don't think there is definite evidence that Frank cheated during WWII, but during the time in Boston, once he realized that Claire was never going to come back to him emotionally and love him again, then yes, I think that's when he did it. I feel for poor Frank. He "lost" his wife and even his affairs didn't appear to matter to Claire. It was sad for both of them, in both the book and the show.