Doug Phillips is a Tool and Vision Forum is Dead - Part 8

[lipstickgoalie]

NO! NO NO NO NO!!!!!

You edited my post, but I pointed out to you exactly why the answer is NO. They are TWO DIFFERENT WORDS. They do not have the same meaning. One is a noun and one is an adjective. They are NOT the same word. I don't know how much more clear I can make it.

They are not using the word by itself, in context, out of context, in a bus, in a train, with a goat, on a boat, the same word. Nor do they have the same meaning. EVER. They are not synonyms. EVER.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME WORD *tap tap* is this thing on???

Words have meaning. Why does every fundie we get here not understand this?

He has done that to me several times. I swear he went to the Steve Maxwell school of communication. Cutting out 3 paragraphs of disagreement and editing down the last remaining paragraph to make it look like I ceded to his mighty self imagined intellect. Cherry picking is ok in the fundamentalist world but it doesn't fly with me.

[thekate]

And VF Ministries provides some more clarity to the situation (visionforumministries.org/home/about/biblical_patriarchy.aspx):

He agreed to resign in September? Why the month+ delay until he actually resigned?

[danvillebelle]

He agreed to resign in September? Why the month+ delay until he actually resigned?

The first thing that comes to mind for me is....the yearly VF catalog was about to come out, and they wanted to sell as much stuff as they could before it all went to hell in a handbasket. Sad, but probably true.

[lemonhead]

Wow. Did this little bit of checking on the NCFIC website and it looks like SB and DH are in Austin tomorrow... any FJr's down in the Austin area want to go to a "leadership" conference?

ncfic.org/events/view/austin-church-leaders-meeting

Holy cow :pink-shock: I'm in Pflugerville, about 5 miles from there. Somehow I don't think they would take kindly to a (tattooed, pant-wearing, agnostic) woman showing up without her headship, though.

But I can recommend the margaritas there :lol:

ETA: I am flying out on a business trip Monday morning. I promise to keep an eye out for them in the Austin airport and take notes as necessary.

[dawbs]

While I know I'm coming in and doing kinda making throwaway posts that fit the discussion tangentially only then going off to other things, I have another one (which I shouldn't be making since I"m medicated but my typing doesn't look slurrrrrred to me. yet.)

I think that it's important for people (apologists) to remember that, statistically speaking, it's nearly impossible for people who socialize in the world (so, basically, everyone except the Maxwells) to not know rape victims. And when you go a step further and look at the numbers, you also know rapists.

A huge number of sexual assaults are, as we've discussed ad nauseum, unreported. Studies are hard because of that, but there is consensus that the percentages are pretty similar from group to group. So if 1 out of 5 women on the street is a survivor of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault (that's a reasonable number, according to reports. linkies or linky2, it's reasonable to assume 1/5 church going women also is a survivor.

Which means, on an average day, the 50+ people I come in contact with through work each and every day, 25 (which is 50%) are female--so I've probably dealt with 5 survivors of assault/attempted assault.

If I go out on a limb, and say that the majority of the population is not evil and understand consent and say that there is a small percentage of rapists who commit most rapes, I think a stab that, let's say, the average rapist commits 5 rapes, then, in the 50 people I came into contact with had in their midst 5 survivors and 1 rapist.

We all know survivors. we all know rapists.

I find that realizing that this *handwavy about sexual assault on the whole* discussion isn't just about Lourdes and DPiaT and how I feel about it and how you feel about it, but that it's about a helluva lot of people we know--Allison down the street and James who goes to my church and Janet who is afraid of her own shadow changes the dynamic.

Especially when the "I would totally have kicked him in the balls and told my parents and anyone who would listen" has to meet "I always thought I would have fought back tooth and nail, but I was paralyzed with fear and did...nothing" from survivors.

(because those 5 survivors I came in contact with yesterday? I don't know which 5 women they were...but statistically, only 1/3 of them (so 1, give or take 30%) reported that rape. (linky). And odds are overwhelming that the woman who reported it had a hard time reporting it...and that it did nothing, her attacker is probably still at large, since only a miniscule percentage actually get convicted and serve time)

I'd say that we have a duty to think of this not just being about someone who 'should have' done something differently, but in recognizing that, as a whole, our society has this story much much MUCH to often, so maybe we should listen to it differently and provide survivors with different tools to speak up.

(Edited to correct that 25=/=50. Maths be hard, lets go shoppin)

[AllisonWndrland]

I'd say that we have a duty to think of this not just being about someone who 'should have' done something differently, but in recognizing that, as a whole, our society has this story much much MUCH to often, so maybe we should listen to it differently and provide survivors with different tools to speak up.

Beautifully put. Thank you. Those of us working in the SA/DV field are thrilled to see others saying this...it gets tough to often be the only ones in a crowd with this message. It's so difficult for survivors to speak up and report precisely because of social norms and judgments coming from friends, neighbors, law enforcement, the CJ system, medical professionals, etc. It's well past time for society to make some changes.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Maybe SOME of them didn't know, like Jim Zes way up in Missouri, but how much would you want to bet that Don Hart didn't know... after all, he was the legal council for Doug for a while and is not that far away, and his fellow attorney is married to the daughter of Bob Sarratt (BCA elder). It would be shocking if he didn't know well before the other board members.

I thought that Voddie had stated he knew DP stepped down as an elder in February, but not that he knew why.

[Maxwell]

If I can ever afford it, I really need to get Photoshop.

You could try The Gimp -- it's free and does a pretty decent job.

[hoipolloi]

I thought that Voddie had stated he knew DP stepped down as an elder in February, but not that he knew why.

He did, posted it on FB.

[DomWackTroll]

I thought that Voddie had stated he knew DP stepped down as an elder in February, but not that he knew why.

Right, but that's yet another thing I don't believe. :lol:

[RandomTrivia]

You could try The Gimp -- it's free and does a pretty decent job.

Also, Paint Shop Pro was always highly recommended as doing 90% of what Photoshop did, for a fraction of the price. I need to look into upgrading mine, as I'm still using version 4 or some insanely old copy, and I'm not sure it will play nice with Win7 on the "new" PC. I think PSP was up to version 9 or 10, last I checked, usually priced around $90 (less if you're upgrading). I like it a lot, which is why I've resisted upgrading. Trying to deal with Win8 on Husband's laptop is enough of a headache.

[hoipolloi]

Voddie's FB "statement" (https://www.facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/ ... 9147892550):

November 1, 2013

Sarah Long Munn‎: Voddie I am wondering if you can clear something up. Doug Phillips is only resigning from Vision Forum Ministries not Vision Forum. Is that correct? He is still in fact the President of Vision Forum. He posted on his blog as recently as today. They are two seperate ministries. Please correct me if I am wrong

Like ·

Christine Pack: Voddie, do you know if Doug Phillips has stepped down as elder at his church?

Like · Reply · November 2, 2013 at 9:01am

Voddie Baucham Ministries: As I said, that happened months ago. That, however, I do not believe that was not related to this issue.

Like · November 2, 2013 at 3:40pm

Voddie Baucham Ministries: Sarah, One is a ministry, the other is a 'for-profit' corporation. That's why they have different names.

Like · Reply · November 1, 2013 at 12:59pm

Voddie Baucham Ministries: I don't know what's going to happen with The Vision Forum. I just read the letter like everyone else. I had heard about him stepping down at his church prior to this, but didn't know why. In fact, I still don't know if that was connected to this.

Like · November 1, 2013 at 1:03pm

Christine Lawler: I think, what's important is that we pray for the Phillips family.

Like · Reply · November 3, 2013 at 1:34am

Sidestep, sidestep, sidestep -- nothing like a brave, manly man of God, eh Voddie?

:liar:

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Okay, somewhere at the end of part 7, people were talking about Jen and Eston again and I found this while I was googling something last night. I didn't know where to throw it, but I figured here was okay since they were just brought up again.

whynottrainachild.com/articles/vision-forum/

It's a list of people/groups associated with VF. Jen defends one Peter Kershaw in the comments. As so many people speculated Eston is Kershaw, I found that very telling.and as I can't stand Eston, I wanted to share.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Voddie's FB "statement" (https://www.facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/ ... 9147892550):

Sidestep, sidestep, sidestep -- nothing like a brave, manly man of God, eh Voddie?

:liar:

Okay, well, I thought DomWackTroll was implying that the board must have known about the "relationship" (abuse) since even Voddie knew back in Jan/Feb. I was just trying to point out that just because Voddie knew about stepping down as an elder, he hadn't necessarily heard about the sin that caused it. If Voddie is to believed that is.......but I am inclined to believe him as it seems his relationship with Dougie and friends had become distanced.

[Hane]

We all know survivors. we all know rapists.

I find that realizing that this *handwavy about sexual assault on the whole* discussion isn't just about Lourdes and DPiaT and how I feel about it and how you feel about it, but that it's about a helluva lot of people we know--Allison down the street and James who goes to my church and Janet who is afraid of her own shadow changes the dynamic.

Especially when the "I would totally have kicked him in the balls and told my parents and anyone who would listen" has to meet "I always thought I would have fought back tooth and nail, but I was paralyzed with fear and did...nothing" from survivors.

Exactly this. This is why I was so upset when, in another thread months ago, I admitted to emotional paralysis when my then-husband got me in a headlock during an argument and several FJers triumphantly announced, "I woulda just kicked him in the balls and left him!"

OUR OWN (female) PEOPLE SAID THIS. Now imagine how non-feminist women in the rest of the world would react to women like Lourdes.

[DomWackTroll]

Okay, well, I thought DomWackTroll was implying that the board must have known about the "relationship" (abuse) since even Voddie knew back in Jan/Feb. I was just trying to point out that just because Voddie knew about stepping down as an elder, he hadn't necessarily heard about the sin that caused it. If Voddie is to believed that is.......but I am inclined to believe him as it seems his relationship with Dougie and friends had become distanced.

Yes, even though Voddie lives in Texas, it's a big state and he is constantly traveling, too. I absolutely believe he did not know about anything until-- I can't remember the month he said, February or March-- but it's hard for me to believe that someone would have told him, "Oh, yeah, Doug stepped down as an elder at BCA" and the conversation ended right there. No more information whatsoever from the source? Voddie didn't ask any questions about it? Didn't investigate it all so that he could position himself?

He had to know this was very strange behavior from Doug and that it could affect him profoundly. If he wanted to know the truth-- and of course he would have-- it would not have taken long to find out. He is powerful in that world. A few calls and he'd know everything-- but I don't even think he had to make those few calls.

[Librul]

You NEVER know how you are going to react until the moment is upon you. Women who say they would leave a cheaing spouse, sometimes stay and forgive. Women who say they would kick someone in the balls, sometimes freeze. Brave women sometimes feel incredibly guilty after an assault....our reactions to these stressful and degrading and violent situations are varied and unpredictable and it is not something to judge in others.

One thing I know is that fundies can't have it both ways. They can't at the same time say, "women are to submit, to obey and to be under the leadership and authority of father, brother, pastor and spouse. They are to remain uneducated and lacking in higher critical thinking skills." And at the same time say, "well, she must have liked it since she didn't immediately stop her pastor from masturbating on her and tell her father".

Of course the SOTDRT is not known for logical thinking.

[Peas n carrots]

Exactly this. This is why I was so upset when, in another thread months ago, I admitted to emotional paralysis when my then-husband got me in a headlock during an argument and several FJers triumphantly announced, "I woulda just kicked him in the balls and left him!"

OUR OWN (female) PEOPLE SAID THIS. Now imagine how non-feminist women in the rest of the world would react to women like Lourdes.

I think that is part of where my shame came from. I always thought I would be one of those women who would kick a guy in the balls and run away. The first incident that happened between my and said co-worker, was literally outside the doors of our office building and he grabbed my rear end. It was so casual the way he did it...I was stunned. I asked myself "did that REALLY happen or did I misinterpret in some way what happen?" I kept on asking myself if it was an accident.

Previous to this incident I liked this person as a colleague, so it made it all the more confusing. I didn't want to make false accusations against someone who had taken in interest in helping me grow my career. Looking back, hindsight 20/20 it was apparent that he believed that I owed him more than just gratitude for helping my career grow.

Then there is the fact that many of my other male colleagues were close friends with him, including my boss. The men often had "boys weekends" where they would go to my co-worker's vacation home and play poker all weekend. These guys often had lunch together, and their kids were friends. Said co-worker was also one of the top producers in the company...he brought in millions of dollars every year. I was an entry level person who was struggling to keep my husband and I afloat while we rode out the recession.

This co-worker didn't target the other women in the company who were higher level...I was targeted because who was the company going to dump if the accusations came up? The guy who brings in millions to the company, or the lowly entry level person who was much more easily replaceable? Legally, they could not fire me, but during the recession they used lay-offs to clean out the troublesome employees - I couldn't afford to lose my job with the craptastic job market.

[Peas n carrots]

I'd also like to add a poster above made the astute observation that Lourdes didn't have to tell someone because it wasn't exactly a secret.

I personally like to call these kind of things "The Secret Everyone Knows About."

Same thing with my case too. Everyone in the office knew co-worker was a lecherous goat. Unfortunately, I not only happened to be in a position where being able to stand up for myself was difficult, but I also was his "type." I got teased by other co-workers for this unfortunate double-whammy. He didn't exactly hide a lot of this actions either...he would openly pinch my waist in front of not only my co-workers, but in front of his boss. It was pretty clear that no one was interested in saying or doing anything about it to begin with...so it just made me think that going to HR wasn't exactly going to do anything either.

[Maxwell]

You NEVER know how you are going to react until the moment is upon you. Women who say they would leave a cheaing spouse, sometimes stay and forgive. Women who say they would kick someone in the balls, sometimes freeze. Brave women sometimes feel incredibly guilty after an assault....our reactions to these stressful and degrading and violent situations are varied and unpredictable and it is not something to judge in others.

One thing I know is that fundies can't have it both ways. They can't at the same time say, "women are to submit, to obey and to be under the leadership and authority of father, brother, pastor and spouse. They are to remain uneducated and lacking in higher critical thinking skills." And at the same time say, "well, she must have liked it since she didn't immediately stop her pastor from masturbating on her and tell her father".

Of course the SOTDRT is not known for logical thinking.

I would venture to say that this is a far more universal problem than just in the Fundy world. Sure, point out the duplicity, that's fine, but don't be extra mad at them as it seems to be more of a human problem than a Fundy problem.

Edit 'cause I'm an idiot and didn't preview... sorry... I'll try to do better.

[Librul]

Yea, actually I CAN be extra mad at them...

[Cleopatra7]

I would venture to say that this is a far more universal problem than just in the Fundy world. Sure, point out the duplicity, that's fine, but don't be extra mad at them as it seems to be more of a human problem than a Fundy problem.

Edit 'cause I'm an idiot and didn't preview... sorry... I'll try to do better.

I understand that rape and sexual harrassment are not particular to the fundementalist world, but I do think that the fundies deserve extra blame than other groups for the following reasons:

1. Fundies claim that if women follow their rules about modesty, courtship, and submissiveness that they will be protected from physical, sexual, and emotional violence. As the Doug Phillips is a Tool case shows, all this does is make women and girls into victims. We can also see this dynamic at work in countries like India, Iran, and Egypt, where most women dress modestly by Western standard but are still sexually harrassed and assaulted at an alarming rate.

2. Fundies don't believe in psychology, so when a person suffers a trauma, sexual or otherwise, they are denied the ability to seek help for their problem. Because these inane "no gossiping" rules, they probably wouldn't even approve of a Christian support group for sexual violence survivors.

3. Fundies don't believe that females should ever have the right to assert themselves. As others have said, it's contradictory for VF and ATI people to ask why these women didn't complain when at the same time they teach females that they are to always obey male authority. These people don't even believe that a woman should leave an abusive spouse. They have nothing to offer to abused women but scorn and judgement. If VF people were bandying around the idea that adulturers should be stoned, how much of a leap is it for them to think that a woman who has been raped is guilty of adultury?

[cindyluvs24]

Somehow I doubt Doug sang the same song when it was Bill Clinton getting investigated over the Monica matter.

[RachelB]

You NEVER know how you are going to react until the moment is upon you. Women who say they would leave a cheaing spouse, sometimes stay and forgive. Women who say they would kick someone in the balls, sometimes freeze. Brave women sometimes feel incredibly guilty after an assault....our reactions to these stressful and degrading and violent situations are varied and unpredictable and it is not something to judge in others.

One thing I know is that fundies can't have it both ways. They can't at the same time say, "women are to submit, to obey and to be under the leadership and authority of father, brother, pastor and spouse. They are to remain uneducated and lacking in higher critical thinking skills." And at the same time say, "well, she must have liked it since she didn't immediately stop her pastor from masturbating on her and tell her father".

Of course the SOTDRT is not known for logical thinking.

Adrenaline is a pretty powerful pain-killer. A kick in the balls is not going to have the same effect on someone who is full of adrenaline and fury as it would on someone not hopped up on neurochemicals.

And, oh my, do I understand the impulse to say, "If someone tried to assault me, I would X." It is nice to think that your behavior keeps you safe. It isn't necessarily true, though, and it is hurtful to people who have been assaulted.

[Maxwell]

I understand that rape and sexual harrassment are not particular to the fundementalist world, but I do think that the fundies deserve extra blame than other groups for the following reasons:

1. Fundies claim that if women follow their rules about modesty, courtship, and submissiveness that they will be protected from physical, sexual, and emotional violence. As the Doug Phillips is a Tool case shows, all this does is make women and girls into victims. We can also see this dynamic at work in countries like India, Iran, and Egypt, where most women dress modestly by Western standard but are still sexually harrassed and assaulted at an alarming rate.

2. Fundies don't believe in psychology, so when a person suffers a trauma, sexual or otherwise, they are denied the ability to seek help for their problem. Because these inane "no gossiping" rules, they probably wouldn't even approve of a Christian support group for sexual violence survivors.

3. Fundies don't believe that females should ever have the right to assert themselves. As others have said, it's contradictory for VF and ATI people to ask why these women didn't complain when at the same time they teach females that they are to always obey male authority. These people don't even believe that a woman should leave an abusive spouse. They have nothing to offer to abused women but scorn and judgement. If VF people were bandying around the idea that adulturers should be stoned, how much of a leap is it for them to think that a woman who has been raped is guilty of adultury?

Please bear with me here and understand that I am not defending fundamentalism.

From the [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics]Wiki entry on rape statistics:[/link]

Under-reporting

According to the American Medical Association (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime.

The most common reasons given by victims for not reporting rapes are the belief that it is a personal or private matter, and that they fear reprisal from the assailant. A 2007 British government report says "Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 percent of rape crimes are never reported to the police."

So while Fundyism doesn't help, it certainly doesn't appear to be the main reason that this stuff doesn't get reported. It seems to be human nature to feel embarrassed and ashamed and fear reprisal.

As to the cause, I would venture to say that power and control are the cause. Fundyism, religion in general (pick one and you'll find plenty of cases), politics, teaching, employer/employee relations, parental/family relations all provide fertile ground for this stuff to take root. Personally, I hear far more reports of it happening in the teaching profession than in fundy circles -- does that mean that I should hate teachers more when I hear about it? No, I hate it all. I hate when I hear about some politician who is involved -- whether it be a Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, etc. I hate when I hear about teaches or coaches being involved. I hate when young people are involved ([link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case]Stubbenville, OH[/link] anyone?)... I hate it whenever I hear of it.

So sure, hate DPIAT/R, hate Bill Gothard, hate Jack Shaap... but hate them because of their actions and hate the same actions of others just as much. It ALL is evil. That's all I'm saying.