Those poor, misunderstood Pearls..../CNN Clip [Merge]

[Koala]

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/11/defending-pearls.html#idc-container

[precious_one]

I posted the below comment but I am sure it will be deleted.

You don't train a child you train an animal. Pearl's comparison of "training" a child is like "training" a horse. You must first break their will and spirit. The Pearl's are nothing but child abuse advocates.

[RandomTrivia]

I posted the below comment but I am sure it will be deleted.

You don't train a child you train an animal. Pearl's comparison of "training" a child is like "training" a horse. You must first break their will and spirit. The Pearl's are nothing but child abuse advocates.

Hell, the "break their will" method of training isn't even that common with animals anymore, in part because you end up with an animal that doesn't really want to cooperate (I'm probably not explaining that well), and isn't as reliable, behaviorally speaking, as one trained in other methods. (And from what I've read of mules, which I believe Pearl uses as an example a lot, they're even more apt to resist that kind of training. Trying to "break" a mule usually leads to trouble.)

[debrand]

Please do not engage in an online debate via the Amazon comment pages. The vast majority of these people have already made up their minds based on false information that agrees with their own preconceived ideas. They are resistant to the truth that challenges their prejudices. “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him†(Proverbs 26:4).

What is up with Pearl defender claiming that people who dislike their parenting methods haven't read their book? I have read the online copy of the book and much of the material on their site. I urge everyone to read their book before they comment. Take my word for it, the book is far, far worse than anything that is quoted from it. :evil:

[debrand]

I wish that the poster, Kim had her own blog because I find her scenario unlikely.

I don't know anything about this book, but from what you have printed, sounds like logical reasoning. Let me tell you my story. My youngest son was attacking and biting my oldest son. Testing suspected autism (not talking, no interaction with people, more on the list), I had three home therapists and one group therapy for him every week (4 1/2 hours/week), which didn't help with his behavior. Our church had a parenting seminar that advocated dads, not moms, disciplining, spanking if needed. My husband woke up to our condition (I spent my days being a barrier between the boys), three times spanked the youngest, and BOOM, it was over. No more biting, more playing, more laughter, wonderful. The therapists didn't think spanking was a good idea, and didn't think it will help long term. I told them that the biting needed to stop yesterday, and now, they can do what they are here to do. When the time came for him to go to preschool for therapy, the lead therapist admitted that they were surprised by how far he came, and that maybe spanking has a place. I explained that most people don't know how to properly use spanking (obviously, PhD child therapist included), because they let things boil out of control. By that time, no one will be nice. Timing, control, and adjusting for the child are key. To this day, my youngest gets compliments on how well behaved he is, as do my other two.

[Loveday]

I posted a comment there as well, but I doubt it will see the light of day.

Spanking is one thing, although I don't advocate that, either. But what the Pearls recommend and teach is far beyond what most of us know as a simple spanking. It's literally abuse, no matter how you try to dress it up or excuse it. And saying so is not expressing hatred for the Pearls or being evil towards them, it's standing up for the little children who are being tortured by their horrific methods. Even newborns and three month old babies aren't safe from the Pearls' sadistic training methods.

I've raised two well adjusted children to adulthood without resorting to such draconian methods of discipline (and yes, I've read the entire book, so I know exactly what the Pearls teach). Unlike the Pearls, and apparently a lot of other insecure parents, I didn't need a pair of little robots whose every independent thought, wish, dream, and desire was flayed into obliteration by plumbing line. What is most monstrous about this book is the gleeful way Michael Pearl describes everything--he seems to take a deep, perverse pleasure in hurting children. THAT is what is most terrifying.

To anyone considering this book, or who has already used its methods: If you can't teach your children appropriate behaviour without resorting to the Pearls' book, you don't deserve to be a parent. Call me evil and hate-filled for thinking that, if you like. I'll be at full peace when I stand before God, knowing that I said what I felt had to be said about these people and stood up in defense of defenseless children. Will YOU be at full peace standing before God, knowing that you beat a baby?

[precious_one]

Lori responded to my comment. I think I will call God right up and have an argument with him. Again you just cannot change stupid and that is exactly where Lori is stuck. Her comment is below.

You will have to argue with God about that!

Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Proverbs 22:6

When they teach about breaking a child's will, they are teaching about breaking a child's rebellious, sinful, disobedient will. We did this with all of our children when they were young, and child rearing was wonderful and none of them were ever rebellious. God's ways work!

[thoughtful]

Hell, the "break their will" method of training isn't even that common with animals anymore, in part because you end up with an animal that doesn't really want to cooperate (I'm probably not explaining that well), and isn't as reliable, behaviorally speaking, as one trained in other methods. (And from what I've read of mules, which I believe Pearl uses as an example a lot, they're even more apt to resist that kind of training. Trying to "break" a mule usually leads to trouble.)

This (well, you knew I'd agree!). :D

Mike's descriptions of bait-and-whip scenarios sound exactly like old-school dog training.

Even if we are talking about a simpler, nonverbal, nonhuman mind, pain is not the way to go. Anybody who truly understands behavioral science knows this.

And, of course, with people, even very young children, we have much more at our disposal than simplistic behaviorism.

The sad thing is, Mike Pearl knows that, in his own weird way. It's just that he won't apply the kinder things until he has applied the painful ones.

I've seen writings from animal trainers that have the same problem. They may be hung up on "authority," or just cruel by nature -- I think Mike fits those descriptions. But there's another element, and I think Mike has this problem, too.

They know a teeny bit about behaviorism, and remember hearing something about four "quadrants." They somehow think you have to use all four to get results. You'll hear them call themselves something like "balanced" trainers.

One of the four quadrants always involves the human purposely doing something unpleasant, generally physically painful, and another may involve it. They are easily left out of training, with no ill effects. Pain is never needed.

These people forget that behavioral science is descriptive as well as prescriptive. Sometimes it is just saying "the dog got sprayed by a skunk and that reduced it's tendency to approach skunks," (which, BTW, is not always what happens!) not "teach your dog to avoid skunks by tossing him at a skunk." :roll:

Whether they come to this, like Mike, from a little bit of knowledge about behavioral science, or naturally, like Mike claims his Amish neighbors have, they can't seem to let it go.

The idea that an animal or a child is not a broken appliance or vehicle, that you have to break down and take apart before "repairing," never seems to get through to them. :angry-banghead:

[thoughtful]

What is up with Pearl defender claiming that people who dislike their parenting methods haven't read their book? I have read the online copy of the book and much of the material on their site. I urge everyone to read their book before they comment. Take my word for it, the book is far, far worse than anything that is quoted from it. :evil:

This has been a tactic of theirs through all of these campaigns.

And, in fact, after each of the deaths that bring the book to the news, some people have been freely admitting they have only read excerpts or not read the book at all, when posting negative reviews. I still think they have a better idea of what a vicious piece of crap it is then Pearl's supporters do!

I'm with you -- I think that the whole, "tying heart strings" and all, is much more heinous than the excerpts.

[VolgarTheViking]

They say that three children have been murdered due to the teachings the Pearls advocate. This is simply not true!

*laughs in to oblivion*

>>>>http://www.examiner.com/article/another-couple-found-guilty-of-murder-for-parenting-by-to-train-up-a-child

[debrand]

I posted the below comment but I am sure it will be deleted.

You don't train a child you train an animal. Pearl's comparison of "training" a child is like "training" a horse. You must first break their will and spirit. The Pearl's are nothing but child abuse advocates.

This was Lori's response

You will have to argue with God about that!

Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Proverbs 22:6

When they teach about breaking a child's will, they are teaching about breaking a child's rebellious, sinful, disobedient will. We did this with all of our children when they were young, and child rearing was wonderful and none of them were ever rebellious. God's ways work!

Lori, like many on the far right, do not actually read their bibles but probably reads others views on the bible. The far right are the most biblical illiterate Christians that there are.

I wanted to write this but decided not to engage her:

I thought that Christians were free from the law of the Old Testament

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.â€

"Galatians 3:10"

For whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10"

God is the father and Christians believe that they are adopted into his family. Instead of being under the law, Christians are under grace. It makes sense that the way we view parenting should change and not be based on the Old Testament. Besides you can' t pick or chose which Old Testament verses. I am pretty certain that you wouldn't support American soldiers forcibly bringing home Afghanistani wives who were stolen from their homes.

I decided not to post to her site because it is just too much negative energy in my life to start a conversation with Lor iDeuteronomy 21:11-14

[Loveday]

This was Lori's response

Lori, like many on the far right, do not actually read their bibles but probably reads others views on the bible. The far right are the most biblical illiterate Christians that there are.

I wanted to write this but decided not to engage her:

I thought that Christians were free from the law of the Old Testament

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.â€

"Galatians 3:10"

For whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10"

God is the father and Christians believe that they are adopted into his family. Instead of being under the law, Christians are under grace. It makes sense that the way we view parenting should change and not be based on the Old Testament. Besides you can' t pick or chose which Old Testament verses. I am pretty certain that you wouldn't support American soldiers forcibly bringing home Afghanistani wives who were stolen from their homes.

I decided not to post to her site because it is just too much negative energy in my life to start a conversation with Lor iDeuteronomy 21:11-14

That is exactly what I wanted to post under the following comment by someone named Kimberly:

I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but just out of curiosity, how do those who oppose spanking take Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him....?

Unfortunately, I've commented twice and both times they weren't published, so I guess I'm now on Lori's shit list. :snooty:

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I responded to the last one and posted a separate comment. I didn't read the other people's names and I chose "Kim" so now it's a bunch of Kims arguing about it over there, sorry!

[GeoBQn]

Lori responded to my comment. I think I will call God right up and have an argument with him. Again you just cannot change stupid and that is exactly where Lori is stuck. Her comment is below.

You will have to argue with God about that!

Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Proverbs 22:6

When they teach about breaking a child's will, they are teaching about breaking a child's rebellious, sinful, disobedient will. We did this with all of our children when they were young, and child rearing was wonderful and none of them were ever rebellious. God's ways work!

She has now deleted the comment and her response, and posted a comment about how she will now be deleting all comments that criticize the Pearls.

[duplessis3]

Lori responded to my comment. I think I will call God right up and have an argument with him. Again you just cannot change stupid and that is exactly where Lori is stuck. Her comment is below.

You will have to argue with God about that!

Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Proverbs 22:6

When they teach about breaking a child's will, they are teaching about breaking a child's rebellious, sinful, disobedient will. We did this with all of our children when they were young, and child rearing was wonderful and none of them were ever rebellious. God's ways work!

Cripes - does she think the Bible was written in English? Just like "Spare the rod"...I have a friend who was an actual Palestinian shepherd and he says the rod is used to separate the sheep, not to beat them.

[precious_one]

She has now deleted the comment and her response, and posted a comment about how she will now be deleting all comments that criticize the Pearls.

Gosh darn!! My feelings are so hurt!!!

Lori is what my teen age son would call a wretched old hag!!

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Cripes - does she think the Bible was written in English? Just like "Spare the rod"...I have a friend who was an actual Palestinian shepherd and he says the rod is used to separate the sheep, not to beat them.

I wrote a post saying this and some other good things but it never saw the light of day. Then she threw a fit saying NO comments that disagree with the pearls will be published.

[sparkles]

Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Proverbs 22:6

I see absolutely NOTHING in the above quote that says training = physical punishment. Training to me means teaching--by words, by example and modeling behavior, by educating, with patience, perseverance and love. It's only sick bastards like the Pearls and Lori who chose to interpret training as abuse, because they're just too fucking lazy and stupid to bother actually WORKING with their children instead of beating the living daylights out of them.

She has now deleted the comment and her response, and posted a comment about how she will now be deleting all comments that criticize the Pearls.

Deleting comments because they don't agree with you is just cowardly. If you can't defend your beliefs, then you must not be too sure of them.

I posted the following, which I'm sure will never see the light of day.

"Either close comments altogether or ALLOW them all. Choosing only to publish those comments that support your position is dishonest and cowardly. When you post something controversial, then opposing viewpoints are sure to follow. If you can't defend what you believe, then you must not be very confident in those beliefs. "

[Koala]

I will delete any comments that are critical of the Pearls. You can do that many other places on the Internet but not here. I love their teachings. Do I agree with them 100%? No, I don't agree with anyone 100% except God and His Word. What they teach is good and biblical. It has changed my life and marriage. If you don't like them, don't read them but you may not criticize them on my blog. Thank you!

But she's ALWAYS learning. :angry-banghead:

[thoughtful]

It seems the troops have been called out to defend Created to Be His Chopped Meat on Amazon, as well, and Lori has responded:

Debi Pearl's book changed my marriage! I have been using it for 10 years to mentor women with and I have seen it do miracles in other's marriages as well. This is the best book on marriage I have ever read. No where does it say that it is okay for a man to beat his wife! They encourage you to call the authorities if a husband is beating his wife. They teach about winning your husband by becoming the wife God created you to be. I won my husband after 23 years of marriage. I was controlling and manipulative until I read Debi's book. Married life is wonderful now and I recommend it to everyone!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AL ... _cr_pr_pdp

(edited to make it easier to find)

[GeoBQn]

Every time I've visited the post today, the comment count goes down . . .

[docmom]

Debi Pearl's book changed my marriage! I have been using it for 10 years to mentor women with and I have seen it do miracles in other's marriages as well. This is the best book on marriage I have ever read. No where does it say that it is okay for a man to beat his wife! They encourage you to call the authorities if a husband is beating his wife. They teach about winning your husband by becoming the wife God created you to be. I won my husband after 23 years of marriage. I was controlling and manipulative until I read Debi's book. Married life is wonderful now and I recommend it to everyone!

So wonderful is her married life that she feels the need to parade her husband's dirty laundry to the entire interwebz on a daily basis.

I still think one of the most heartbreaking things I read in TTUAC was the description of a little girl playing with a doll. She stripped off the clothes, got a twig from a tree and started beating the doll for "being bad". Mike Pearl thought this was wonderful and foretold great things for this little girl when she became a mother. I saw the cycle of abuse continuing.

[lilwriter85]

Lori has defended the Pearls before. I remember she had a ridiculous "Pray for Michael Pearl" blog entry right around the time Anderson Cooper covered them on his show.

[GeoBQn]

FYI--we missed snarking on Ken's epically long guest post on his view of their marriage yesterday.

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/11/kens-side-of-story.html

[Fun-Dee]

Cripes - does she think the Bible was written in English? Just like "Spare the rod"...I have a friend who was an actual Palestinian shepherd and he says the rod is used to separate the sheep, not to beat them.

Years ago it was explained to me that the rod symbolized the shepherds staff, which is used to guide the sheep and keep them where they are supposed to be. Guiding has nothing to do with beating.