Ding Dong, VF is Dead! And Doug Phillips is a Tool - Part 3

[uber frau]

We have Crocodile Dundee, the prototype for manly men everywhere.

[pomegranate82]

Hello! I'm new here and am rather fascinated by this story. But can anyone tell me why Doug Phillips (who is a tool)'s girl is being referred to as "Hero"?

Also, many people seem to be talking as if they know the specific identity of the girl in question when this hasn't been made public. Is this just speculation? I get that noone wants to out her if she doesn't choose to go public herself but people are nonetheless talking a lot about someone as if they know her exact identity?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Hello! I'm new here and am rather fascinated by this story. But can anyone tell me why Doug Phillips (who is a tool)'s girl is being referred to as "Hero"?

Also, many people seem to be talking as if they know the specific identity of the girl in question when this hasn't been made public. Is this just speculation? I get that noone wants to out her if she doesn't choose to go public herself but people are nonetheless talking a lot about someone as if they know her exact identity?

We decided to give her a pseudonym as it is easier than "the woman Doug had an inappropriate relationship with" and also we did not want to encourage anyone to try and identify her, or use the name of the woman a lot of us think it is.

How about just giving The Lady In Question a pseudonym? How about Ophelia, the obedient daughter from Much Ado About Nothing, whose suitor was a tool and treated her so abominably she went mad and drowned herself? Or Bianca, the SAHD from Taming of the Shrew? Lavinia, who was mutilated by men and told her father who they were? Cordelia, who spoke the truth and was rejected by her father?

I think Lavinia fits pretty well.

Quibble: Ophelia was in Hamlet. Hero, a character in Much Ado About Nothing, was a SAHD whose suitor was all too quick to believe a lie condemning her virtue, and who was thrown under the bus by both said suitor and her father.

I think Hero would be a great pseudonym for the young woman in question.

*headdesk* I originally wrote Hero, then changed it to Ophelia but forgot to change the name of the play. And I agree, Hero does fit better. So. Hero is a hero and Doug Phillips is, as always, a tool.

As you can see, she is named after a character in a Shakespeare play.

Nobody knows who it is yet, but from the things people connected to VF have said, this young lady seems the most likely person.

[pomegranate82]

Aha - thanks for the explanation JellyBeans!

Wow, I didn't even notice "this month"! Well, there's another piece of the puzzle, huh?

Did anyone think the reference to "this month" was a bit out of place? Why does it need saying if not to try and change the timeline of true events? If a bad thing happened to someone you knew, you wouldn't say "I'm so sad that happened to you last month. You'd just say I'm so sad that happened to you.

[DomWackTroll]

Aha - thanks for the explanation JellyBeans!

Did anyone think the reference to "this month" was a bit out of place? Why does it need saying if not to try and change the timeline of true events? If a bad thing happened to someone you knew, you wouldn't say "I'm so sad that happened to you last month. You'd just say I'm so sad that happened to you.

Well, when Sacks made that comment, it was almost exactly a month since Doug's first statement. I don't find it that strange, but I can see what you're getting at. It's not that I'd put it past Peter to try to manipulate the timeline, but I've never even heard of this Sacks guy until yesterday. Peter's attempts at damage control are usually far more hamfisted, so if he was behind it, I'd expect Susan Bradrick or Phillip Bradrick to post something like "What you've been going through in the LAST MONTH since you found out a MONTH ago..." He's not known for his subtlety, and I completely missed it the first time I read Sacks' post.

[DomWackTroll]

I am currently re-reading the KISA thread (fine-toothed comb in hand!), and with the knowledge we have now, some of his comments really make you wonder:

"Geoff has promoted his own image to the point where he can't live up to it. He is conflicted, distracted, and not healthy. He had some kind of health problem that the entire family kept quiet, and I thought it was cancer at first. When he moved to Tennessee for 'health reasons' I assumed it wasn't cancer, but I'm still not sure what it is, or if it's been resolved."

http://freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 2&start=20

Maybe there was no "health reason." Conflicted? Distracted? Hmm…

[formergothardite]

I wonder what KISA is thinking of all this.

[Cleopatra7]

At Jen's Gems, Easton is claiming that Doug the tool caused Beall to be estranged from her parents. If this is true, maybe she can try to reestablish contact with them.

[DomWackTroll]

More KISA:

"Doug always speaks enthusiastically and positively of Geoff, but I don't know how Geoff feels. I think Geoff felt a little too obligated when he was around Doug (as many are inclined to feel) and distanced himself so he could focus on some of his own projects. But even if Doug and Geoff had a disagreement, Doug will still speak very well of Geoff. He respects Geoff's family and friendship. He threw a big going away party for the Botkin family when they left, but Geoff wasn't there. He had already gone to Tennessee to get the new house ready."

http://freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic. ... &start=220

[Soulhuntress]

So either Geoff saw something strange or he was distancing himself from orbiting around Doug's star for other reasons.... interesting.

[formergothardite]

I wonder if Geoff has either known or suspected that Doug has been having an affair for a long time. It would explain him wanting to distance himself from Doug so that when it all fell apart he wouldn't be too close.

[uber frau]

Maybe. I get the feeling that he's a little like Doug Phillips in that he uses 'friends' to get what he wants and then moves on.

I also get the feeling that he doesn't like sharing the spotlight.

[Marian the Librarian]

I am currently re-reading the KISA thread (fine-toothed comb in hand!), and with the knowledge we have now, some of his comments really make you wonder:

"Geoff has promoted his own image to the point where he can't live up to it. He is conflicted, distracted, and not healthy. He had some kind of health problem that the entire family kept quiet, and I thought it was cancer at first. When he moved to Tennessee for 'health reasons' I assumed it wasn't cancer, but I'm still not sure what it is, or if it's been resolved."

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3942&start=20

Maybe there was no "health reason." Conflicted? Distracted? Hmm…

Based on how Geoff Botkin looks in the newly-notorious "Christian rappers are disobedient cowards" video on ncfic.org, I think KISA was correct - something is going on with him, health-wise. He has that unwell, angular look that men get when they have heart disease (my 1st guess), or some other chronic illness. He is not aging well.

I also agree with KISA's description of Geoff as conflicted, distracted, and promoting his own image to the point where he can't live up to it. He's the sort who ropes people into going along with him on The Next Big Thing, then after a few years switches paddles in midstream and makes them start all over again on The New Next Big Thing, because he can't follow through on plans that are inherently flawed. He moved his family to New Zealand in anticipation of a Y2K meltdown; his stated goal at that time was to take over NZ, with oldest son Isaac as prime minister. And what is Isaac doing these days? Nobody seems to know. Anna Sofia and Elizabeth, the intended matriarchs of Geoff's 200 Year Plan, are still stay-at-home-daughters, pushing 30, and kept in thrall to dad and mom. Now Geoff has his family tucked away in rural middle Tennessee, more isolationist and off the radar than ever. I don't know if he had any conscious awareness of Doug's philandering, but I do think he's nuts and a paranoid control freak, with a "This town isn't big enough for the both of us" mentality.

Lots more info at undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2009/05/botkin-update-who-is-geoff-botkin-and.html, for those who are curious.

[pomegranate82]

At Jen's Gems, Easton is claiming that Doug the tool caused Beall to be estranged from her parents. If this is true, maybe she can try to reestablish contact with them.

Interesting - does anyone know if they approved the marriage to begin with? Did Doug do the fundy thing of requesting that authority be transferred to him from Beall's father or did they not get on from the start?

[realist51]

A little off topic, but some discussion here lead me back to read the KISA thread, which I had never done previously. KISA makes a LOT of references to the person who many are assuming is "Hero." Starting at around page 30 of the thread, he talks about how awesome she is and how, although she is not married, she "might" have someone on the horizon. Given his clear affection for Doug, I find his seeming infatuation with this woman in particular to be interesting.

[Marian the Librarian]

Yet another blogger's take on the DP mess, with a whole lotta comments...

awomansfreedominchrist.com/are-the-women-to-blame-for-doug-phillips-resignation-from-vision-forum-ministries/#comment-10960

[thoughtful]

We have Crocodile Dundee, the prototype for manly men everywhere.

Oooh, imagine the Fundy version of Crocodile Dundee:

[hoipolloi]

Interesting - does anyone know if they approved the marriage to begin with? Did Doug do the fundy thing of requesting that authority be transferred to him from Beall's father or did they not get on from the start?

The only one still around who seems to have known Doug & Beall at about that time is Bill Potter, and he's absolutely pickled in the VF/patriocentric kool-aid.

Time to put out a call again for anyone reading here who (1) was at William & Mary w/Doug & Beall, and/or (2) in the graduate history program at W & M with Bill Potter.

[Palimpsest]

A little off topic, but some discussion here lead me back to read the KISA thread, which I had never done previously. KISA makes a LOT of references to the person who many are assuming is "Hero." Starting at around page 30 of the thread, he talks about how awesome she is and how, although she is not married, she "might" have someone on the horizon. Given his clear affection for Doug, I find his seeming infatuation with this woman in particular to be interesting.

Mmmm, yes. KISA did talk about/was asked about her.

I missed that thread in real-time but read it shortly afterwards. I can't slog through it all over again! I thought that KISA was a treacherous little rat gossiping about his "friends." He hated Bradrick and disliked Josh Duggar, but everyone else was wonderful.

For those who are re-reading, am I correct in my memory that in the Gospel According to KISA VF is a place like Lake Wobegone where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average?

[hoipolloi]

For those who are re-reading, am I correct in my memory that in the Gospel According to KISA VF is a place like Lake Wobegone where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average?

Yep.

[hoipolloi]

Can't remember if this link has been posted in one of these threads, but there's some good discussion here:

welltrainedmind.com/topic/492983-has-this-been-discussed-doug-phillips-resigns-from-vision-forum-ministries/page-2#entry5280822

[thoughtful]

Much of what I remember about the KISA thread is how he said (believed? who knows?) that Doug was a sweet, blithely oblivious, ethical guy who wouldn't even understand the jokes made here about his Manly Manliness garbage.

Those were not his exact words, but it was the impression I got.

Maybe KISA was one of Doug's followers who really didn't have any sleaziness radar, or maybe he knew the score and was one of the people covering for Doug.

[singsingsing]

From what I remember, KISA was head over heels in love with Doug (yes, I mean that in a platonic sense, but still). He had a crush on 'Hero', too. He said he applied to be an intern but wasn't accepted, so I don't think he was really in with the in crowd. Wonder what he thinks about all of this. Hey KISA, come back and do another AMA, or are you still in shock over your idol's fall from grace?

[gustava]

Yet another blogger's take on the DP mess, with a whole lotta comments...

awomansfreedominchrist.com/are-the-women-to-blame-for-doug-phillips-resignation-from-vision-forum-ministries/#comment-10960

NONONONO! THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME IS DOUG IS A TOOL PHILLIPS. awomansfreedominchrist even suggests that Hero may have initiated the liaison. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN IF HERO WALTZED NAKED IN FRONT OF DOUG IS A TOOL PHILLIPS; HE'S THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME BECAUSE IT WAS HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP HIS PANTS ZIPPED.

SALLIE CAN STICK THIS POST UP HER ASS. :violence-rambo: :violence-rambo: :violence-rambo: :violence-rambo:

rant over

[Marian the Librarian]

A few interesting quotes, from the first 10 pages of the KISA thread:

This is the negative side of Vision Forum. They are always hanging on by a thread and begging for more money from high end donors. They try to be classy about it, and they don't ever directly request money from their 'flock', but they do raise an awful lot of money from a few elite money men who've had conversion experiences and like the message. Doug is a great salesman. He could sell a cat to a mouse, and he manages to raise money in the nick of time for a lot of his projects. Other projects he manages to convince families to start 'businesses' of design or photography to provide services, then he asks for favors. He's a compelling guy, and it gets him a long way.

People are getting tired though, and pocketbooks are getting thin. He's going to have a real challenge to keep things running for the next several years. I know they have very few major events planned for the next few years, and from what I've seen, even the events they are planning have been downsized. If I know Doug, he'll start some different projects that require less funding and make a bigger media splash, since he has so many devoted followers who are incredibly good at media production, and it'll keep the appearances of a more active, exotic, growing company, even though it's getting smaller and generating less product.

I did say I would be writing this from my perspective, though as honestly as possible. Doug is not a jerk. Naive, misguided, living in a fantasy? Maybe. But charismatic, genuine, and doing his best to make the people around him happy, undeniably so. His vision is a little shortsighted, perhaps, but he is good with people.

Doug Phillips, bless his heart, is as clueless as any human being could possibly be about the gayness of those posts. He's a bit like a little kid, he'll say some of the most perverted things with double meanings you could ever imagine. I used to think it was intentional, but after pointing one out to him, he was genuinely shocked and dismayed, and eyed me leerily as though anyone who could know such filth shouldn't be trusted. He's probably right.

[Question from an FJ-er]Do you know anything about Doug's relationship to his sister Alexandra? As a jeans-wearing, Tim Curry admiring, Europe-traveling, yoga-practicing woman, she doesn't quite fit his views of how women should act. Does she ever show up at VF events? Any sense of how she feels about her brother?

Doug loves his family, and admires their accomplishments. He spends a huge part of his ministry sincerely praising the virtue of family unity, and he does his best to demonstrate that to his own flesh and blood. But they definitely look down on him as the blacksheep, and he feels that sting. He pretends it's his conviction that separates, but honestly I think he would rather spend more time with them than they allow or care for.