Bates Wedding Part 2: Zach N Whitney

[xReems]

Wow, they are Duggars #2. wutwuzdat, I hope you don't mind a few questions I want to know..if it's possible :)

1) Kelly claimed that Whitney wanted to change to just wearing skirts only. Do you suspect her feeling pressured by the Bates? They always claim being around "like minded" people, yet it seems like Whitney comes from a fundie-lite family. How did the family handle that at first or were they really accepting of Whit.

2) Just how fundie will Zach and Whit's wedding be?

3) Do you suspect any of the children from breaking away from their fundie/IBLP upbringing or do you think they will continue to drink the kool-aid?

[defraudingjezebel]

Does Zach already have a house/know where they're going to live? It seems that an ongoing theme among Gothardites is to own a house (with no debt!!1111) near to the man's family.

I will also be interested to see whether Whitney conforms to the quiverfull ideal, and to what degree.

[nokidsmom]

It's a thing the bride and groom do at the reception where they change guests for a dance with either the bride or groom, usually the bride. I -think- it's based on some cultural practices where people give the couple money in an envelope or pin money onto the bride's dress, The difference is that in the European countries where the tradition originated that was the only source of money the couple received and there were no gifts. I think it's extremely tacky when people do it on top of having a registry and getting gifts, but from what I've heard it's become something of a fad.

The only wedding that I attended that had a dollar dance was the wedding of a high school friend's brother. My friend was from Colombia and the wedding was very small, probably around 30 guests. The couple was married at the courthouse and the reception in the family home. There was no registry or gifts and the dance was the only way the couple were gifted with any money.

Though I remember that the dance involved both the bride and groom. I danced with him and pinned the money on his suit lapel.

[wutwuzdat]

Wow, they are Duggars #2. wutwuzdat, I hope you don't mind a few questions I want to know..if it's possible :)

1) Kelly claimed that Whitney wanted to change to just wearing skirts only. Do you suspect her feeling pressured by the Bates? They always claim being around "like minded" people, yet it seems like Whitney comes from a fundie-lite family. How did the family handle that at first or were they really accepting of Whit.

2) Just how fundie will Zach and Whit's wedding be?

3) Do you suspect any of the children from breaking away from their fundie/IBLP upbringing or do you think they will continue to drink the kool-aid?

1) I know Zach the best of any of the Bates. We worked together for a short time. He's the only one that has gotten out and seen the outside world and had jobs that weren't family related. I've never met Whitney but from what I've seen/heard she grew up in a somewhat normal family with internet/TV etc. Zach won't let other guys talk to her if he can help it and they are constantly holding hands. I think they are love struck and she will do anything Kelly tells her to do without questioning it. Gil and Kelly very much disliked Whitney at first. She started chasing Zach right after they met at sonic. They tried to stop it with everything short of saying no. I was told that Kelly was asking around to fundie mothers that had girls of age if anyone was interested in Zach and was flabbergasted that no one was. But now that they have seen how Whit is willing to do what she's told they have accepted the situation.

2) That I don't know

3) Zach can't wait to get out of the house. I think he will be less fundie than his parents, at least for a while. I think that Lawson (mainly for the reason of dad spending his money) and possibly Alyssa may be on the fence. Michael, Nathan for sure are staying by the kool-aid station. The rest of the kids are too young for me to speculate. It's sad that the only way you can move out is marriage.

[wutwuzdat]

Does Zach already have a house/know where they're going to live? It seems that an ongoing theme among Gothardites is to own a house (with no debt!!1111) near to the man's family.

I will also be interested to see whether Whitney conforms to the quiverfull ideal, and to what degree.

He's lined up a rental house (at a huge discount because of his family name I might add) somewhere in Lake City. I heard that one day in church his dad said from the pulpit that he couldn't wait to come over and have a meal at Zach's house since he's been feeding him for all these years. Zach yelled back: "bring your own food" in front of everyone

[formergothardite]

Lawson has been feeding him all these years. Gil is a lazy ass.

Do they spank?

[wutwuzdat]

Lawson has been feeding him all these years. Gil is a lazy ass.

Do they spank?

Gil doesn't go to work until late in the afternoon... If he were to keep a schedule and start working at 8 or 9am he could run a very profitable business. But why do that when God will provide? I've heard if he gives you a time he will be somewhere add 2-4 hrs. They do everything last minute

They spank but never in public. They take the child to a private area and "encourage" him/her there

[Finduilas]

Lawson has been feeding him all these years. Gil is a lazy ass.

Do they spank?

Might sound stupid by I don't remeber this whole story about Lawson being the breadwinner of the family. Could someone refresh my memory ?

[nolongerIFBx]

I think this will be interesting. Is Whitney really convinced that wearing pants is a sin? Is she just willing to do so long-termto keep the in-laws happy, or is she just going along to get along until the wedding? It could truly be love at first sight for Zach and he's hoping to turn his dream girl into a clone of his sisters. On the other hand, if he does that, she'll no longer be the girl that attracted him, so deep down, maybe that isn't what he's really looking for. He's willing to go against Gothard to marry someone who is adopted, since Gothard is against adoption (he applies an OT verse that says the father's since are visited on the children and since you may not know what an adopted child's father's sins were, best to avoid adoptees). So Zach is at least blinded enough by love to ignore a well known dictate of his (presumably) leader. Frankly, I hope Zach becomes close to his FIL and finds out that you can be a good Christian without being ATI/IBLP/VF/IFBx. Not only would that be wondeful for Zach and Whitney, but it will cause his family to reconsider if Gothard is right that his way of living the Christian life is the only right way and everyone else is just backslidden. Maybe, just maybe, it is about loving God and loving others, not following rules in order to be on God's good side.

[Mela99]

What on earth is a "dollardance"?

Holy cow! 80 items is tiny? What are the usual length of wishlists for an American wedding? I don't think I've ever seen more then 10-ish items long wishlists here.

And some more general "culture-difference" questions:

How many guests would be "normal" for a US wedding?

Do regular non-fundie people also have bridesmaids, groomsmen, flowergirls etc.? And if so what is the point?

Are such customs as to who gives a toast/when the couple should leave/throwing of various objects (flowers/garters/socks) strictly observed?

And yes, I do realise that there will be regional/religious/cultural/class-differences, I'm just curious as to how the fundie-weddings are different/similar to more mainstream weddings.

The norm here - what I was told, anyway - is to register for 2-3 items for every guest you invite, so there are plenty of choices. For us, we have about 160 people invited, so the salesman told us to register for over 300 items. We said hell no.

Lately, there are people with multiple registries at different stores with hundreds of items on each. I had a sorority sister who registered for almost $20,000 worth of stuff.

So, for us, 80 items is tiny. And the majority of them are simply suggestions if anybody wants to get us a gift. The only things we NEED (we already have a house) are matching glasses and plates. I'm not that fussed if nothing else comes.

[nokidsmom]

He's lined up a rental house (at a huge discount because of his family name I might add) somewhere in Lake City. I heard that one day in church his dad said from the pulpit that he couldn't wait to come over and have a meal at Zach's house since he's been feeding him for all these years. Zach yelled back: "bring your own food" in front of everyone

Zach actually said that? Good for him!

I have always gotten the feeling that Zach is over the the fundie lifestyle thing. He's gotten out and about as well.

[xReems]

This is all really fascinating, especially with how two faced Kelly is regarding Whitney. From her replies, it seems like Kelly has always adored Whitney since she was there to help Zach out after the failed courtship with Sarah, however, little did we know that she did not approve of her at first. If Zach wants out, I wonder if his beliefs for "leaving children up to God" might change after marriage.

Finduilas, I can't remember whether it was one of Kelly's response or on a tv special but Kelly has claimed that Lawson hands out to his family, whenever they need it. She mentioned that Erin was short on her tuition and asked Lawson if she could "borrow" some money. There's also been times when Gil has taken money from him because he couldn't afford certain things. It doesn't surprise me that Lawson would want outs with his family after all of that.

I wonder whether or not Chad and Erin will continue to drink the kook-aid too or end up mixing up their own flavors. For some reason, after hearing all the stories, I find them more and more annoying.

[docmom]

And yes, I do realise that there will be regional/religious/cultural/class-differences, I'm just curious as to how the fundie-weddings are different/similar to more mainstream weddings.

No booze, no dancing, crappy food.

[HereticHick]

Whutwazdat, I wish I were still back home in the mountains so I could take you out for a drink! : )

Thanks so much for the insights!

[nokidsmom]

This is all really fascinating, especially with how two faced Kelly is regarding Whitney. From her replies, it seems like Kelly has always adored Whitney since she was there to help Zach out after the failed courtship with Sarah, however, little did we know that she did not approve of her at first. If Zach wants out, I wonder if his beliefs for "leaving children up to God" might change after marriage.

Indeed it is. I find it very interesting that Zach seems to be interested in girls who don't quite fit the fundie mold and have things going for themselves. That says something about him; he actually has his own mind about what he wants in spite of his upbringing and gives me some hope that he and Whit will become more fundie lite or even conservative Christian post marriage.

As far as Whitney conforming and gaining Kelly's approval, let's see if that's just for the duration. Make Mom and Dad happy until the wedding is over but once set up in their own home, they quietly ditch the fundie life. Plus Zach now will have another family involved: his in-laws. Now I don't know anything about the relationship with them but they could potentially be a support to him as he finds his own way in life.

[marmalade]

That's a long answer. When I first met them it was cool and kinda a novelty. After getting to know them better and see how they treat their "friends" is appalling. Once they milk the cow dry and you can no longer benefit the family they are done with you. You'll not hear from them unless they have a problem they think you can help with or they have a wedding and want gifts. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Gil tell people he has 19 kids in a effort to get a discount or something given to them. Everyone in the family has come to expect stuff for free.

So yes, I liked the Bates, but less and less so as I have come to see what they are like when the camera's aren't around. The Duggars on the other hand I absolutely can't stand. They are arrogant to a level I've never seen. I'm sad to say but I think it's beginning to rub off on the Bates

I remember Gil doing this on teevee when they were building the addition and he got the front door "donated." Then he tells the family what a "blessing" it is. No, you and Jim Boob worked an angle and the poor guy at the home center was unable to resist the onslaught of TWO con-man assholes. Sorry, I've never found Gil hot or charming or remotely likeable.

[HereticHick]

I've been trying to figure out Zach's salary as an Anderson County Commissioner, but no luck so far looking on the County website.

I did find a county audit that says the Mayor's salary is $55,000 and the mayor's office has less than 5 employees. The commissioners must not be making very much

Here's his bio page: http://www.andersontn.org/Bates%20Final.html which you get to from here: http://www.andersontn.org/commission.html

[RosyDaisy]

It's a thing the bride and groom do at the reception where they change guests for a dance with either the bride or groom, usually the bride. I -think- it's based on some cultural practices where people give the couple money in an envelope or pin money onto the bride's dress, The difference is that in the European countries where the tradition originated that was the only source of money the couple received and there were no gifts. I think it's extremely tacky when people do it on top of having a registry and getting gifts, but from what I've heard it's become something of a fad.

It sure ain't a practice in Southern weddings. Around here it is still considered rude to have a registry (at least the older generations think so). Gifts are given at the bridal shower (not to be confused with bachlorette party) or at the wedding. Thank you notes are hand written and mailed after the honeymoon.

[RosyDaisy]

I have always thought that Kelly was a hateful bitch. She always has that "shit eatin'" grin. I do think she is more involved with her kids, but that's because she had to. She didn't have 4 older daughters in a row to be sister moms to her younger kids. This why she comes across as more likeable than Michelle Duggar. Deep down though she really isn't.

[Luisainlondon1]

i don't know if Kelly is a hateful bitch but I can imagine that she is very concerned about her family's reputation. Maybe other ATI-families might sneer at them for not having their kids under control as if she allows to let Zach marry someone like Whit.

[twinmama]

Rude to have a registry? Do you mostly get money then or like 5 toasters a few blenders and mismatched bedding? Going to a wedding for someone who didn't have a registry would stress me out (or really, I'd just give them money then). I think a registry is to make it easier for all your guests!

I was a pretty laid back bride, but we still registered for a ton of stuff. It's not that you necessarily MUST HAVE every item but you want a lot of $20 gifts for people who can't spend a lot, but you also want a few $100+ for family (or my parents long time friends) who would like to spend a little more. The annoying part to me was that you can't prioritize... like don't buy me a garlic press if I only have 3 out of 8 cups so far! For us, the best part was that we got a few gifts and nearly everyone else gave us gift cards to the places where we registered. We lived in LA at the time, so after our honeymoon we got to go on a shopping spree in Beverly Hills! Even my husband enjoyed that (tho then we had a ton of stuff to cram into our teeny apartment).

The dollar dance seems like a lot of work (and tackiness) for very little reward. If people are seriously giving just a dollar, what do you get like 30 bucks?

[nokidsmom]

i don't know if Kelly is a hateful bitch but I can imagine that she is very concerned about her family's reputation. Maybe other ATI-families might sneer at them for not having their kids under control as if she allows to let Zach marry someone like Whit.

I do find it interesting that Kelly checked around with other fundie moms to see if any of their same age daughters were interested in Zach and found it to be "no go". Seems that they might be making the same mistake as the Duggars: TLC famewhoring does not go over with a lot of their fellow fundies. So if Kelly is worried about the family reputation, she and Gil might want to consider where their constant quest for free money is doing to that.

[Ampak]

Wow....just wow. They don't believe in public assistance, but expect stuff for free? Arrogant, holier-than-though hypocrites! I have never said this in my life, but if Gil asks for or expects something for free, he needs to be told to get off his high horse and get a real job....like the one he had with Nabisco. Oh, and then call him an arrogant holier-than- thou-leech!

:evil:

He has a video on Embassy Institute called "how to raise 19 children without a salary'

[pudding]

He has a video on Embassy Institute called "how to raise 19 children without a salary'

Are you joking? Please tell me that you are joking

[notachance]

Rude to have a registry? Do you mostly get money then or like 5 toasters a few blenders and mismatched bedding? Going to a wedding for someone who didn't have a registry would stress me out (or really, I'd just give them money then). I think a registry is to make it easier for all your guests!

I was a pretty laid back bride, but we still registered for a ton of stuff. It's not that you necessarily MUST HAVE every item but you want a lot of $20 gifts for people who can't spend a lot, but you also want a few $100+ for family (or my parents long time friends) who would like to spend a little more. The annoying part to me was that you can't prioritize... like don't buy me a garlic press if I only have 3 out of 8 cups so far! For us, the best part was that we got a few gifts and nearly everyone else gave us gift cards to the places where we registered. We lived in LA at the time, so after our honeymoon we got to go on a shopping spree in Beverly Hills! Even my husband enjoyed that (tho then we had a ton of stuff to cram into our teeny apartment).

The dollar dance seems like a lot of work (and tackiness) for very little reward. If people are seriously giving just a dollar, what do you get like 30 bucks?

i guess i'm in the minority here, but we had a dollar/apron dance at my wedding. it's pretty common in the area of the country we live in and in my ethnic background. my mother was actually shocked when i mentioned that i thought most of my out-of-town guests would find it tacky. we ended up giving the people who "paid" to dance with the bride and groom jello shots (this is just sounding classier and classier). some people gave a dollar, but others who were expecting the dance gave $20 or more. we ended up with about $230 from our guest list of 160 people, and we used it on the wine tour we did on our honeymoon.