Making Great Conversationalists

[Hane]

Anybody can see why the man got aggravated (if the story is indeed true): It's entirely possible to explain why you're not going to college without spewing out a big holier-than-thou speech. How about "I really want to avoid debt, so I'm taking courses online" or "I'm working in the family business and don't need a degree" or even "College isn't for me"?

[thoughtful]

Anybody can see why the man got aggravated (if the story is indeed true): It's entirely possible to explain why you're not going to college without spewing out a big holier-than-thou speech. How about "I really want to avoid debt, so I'm taking courses online" or "I'm working in the family business and don't need a degree" or even "College isn't for me"?

Yep.

I imagine that the "conversation" was along the lines of how college was not just unnecessary for Jesse, but for anyone, and possibly about the sinful, unChristian atmosphere, and the possibility of losing his son's heart.

Since the man to whom he was bloviating was talking about sending his son to college, I suspect what Jesse said, and how he said it, was quite insulting.

[Miggy]

I suspect the story is true but from Steve's perspective. He says something about it being hard as a parent to see someone being angry with your child. So I think Steve has heard someone speaking angrily to Jesse and asked Jesse what it was all about. Jesse has said "Oh Dad, I was just telling him how I plan to stay home instead of going to college and he got upset." It wouldn't occur to Steve to look into it further. He would just believe Jesse's explanation.

However, I can imagine Jesse actually saying "Oh I'm not going to college. College is evil. Everyone who goes there is corrupted and turns away from God. You are a poor parent to allow your child to go to college." The man would naturally be upset at being spoken to like this, especially by a teenager. Jesse wouldn't see what he had done wrong as he would be parroting exactly what Steve taught him.

[jaynie]

Anybody can see why the man got aggravated (if the story is indeed true): It's entirely possible to explain why you're not going to college without spewing out a big holier-than-thou speech. How about "I really want to avoid debt, so I'm taking courses online" or "I'm working in the family business and don't need a degree" or even "College isn't for me"?

It doesn't even really indicate that Jesse was asked about his own plans. For all the detail we have, it might have been:

Man: "My son is getting ready to go to college! He's so excited about learning new things! What a sweet blessing it is to be able to guide him through this process!"

Jesse: "I'm not going to college because [long list of reasons which probably insinuate its a moral failing to be within 100M of a college]"

Man: "Well aren't you a debbie downer. Excuse me, I have sane people to talk to."

Not that I'm saying it WAS like this, but given how much of Steve's idea of great conversation seems to comprise forcing your beliefs on unsuspecting, unwilling others, I wouldn't be surprised.

This entire book just proves how painfully scripted to Maxwell children are, and if someone deviates from the script in an unexpected way, the only option is to force the conversation back to an acceptable topic (daddy, deity, dogma, or death). This man may have broken the script by talking about something Forbidden, so Jesse was forced to get it back on track. Probably it's the same reason Mary responded to the FJers who talked to her with a defensive "but I love my daddy <3!" Her poor, conversationally deprived brain probably couldn't think of another response, not even a rebuttal. People challenging her beliefs is not part of The Script.

Although some of the advice here is standard for the conversationally challenged, on the whole, "Making Inept Conversationalists" would have been a much better title.

[Hane]

So true, Fellow Janeperson! Your point about their fear of going "off script" is spot-on.

[Myfanwy]

It kinda odd to me that the 'others' who apparently have no clue how to converse go on with their lives chatting away to people of all different stripes and have no need or even knowledge of this epistle. Yet the godly folk who see no one other than family and talk about nothing other than god can see the need. It makes one wonder where the actual problem may be.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

He's basically admitting Jesse was pushing his views on this man, not having a conversation.

They don't ever have a real conversation in the sense of views exchanged and each party is listening. They master the art of some small talk and then turn it around to push the ONE WAY ONLY message delivery of The Truth as they know it.

You can see this in the other Maxwell books too, where they talk about how even extended family gatherings are basically a good reason to call the extended family to Steve-O's turf and witness to them. Anyone they meet in public, too, it's a good excuse to witness. At the mission, the older boys (only ones allowed to do it) are to witness to the poor unfortunates there but be careful NOT to engage if those people talk openly about their lives because that's just all full of sin and not worth hearing.

Surely we all know some people like this, you can tell in their eyes as they're listening to your half of the conversation that they're only wishing you hurry up and finish so they can neatly use some hook from your half as the opener to their pre-cooked sermon or that same old story they've told a million times already.

Most worldly functioning human beings who haven't been sheltered their entire lives and have actually dealt with a variety of people and the vast unwashed have learned already to recognize these people for what they are - SALESMEN. And the bullshit detector is finely honed, catch a whiff, and it's "pull the cord, I'm out." Particularly with teenagers, where the bullshit detector is fully functioning and yet the "social ties dictate I have to put up with this blowhard for various social rules reasons, I'll just smile and nod" skill hasn't fully kicked in.

So yeah. I'm not really all that surprised that Steve-O is finding people blow him or his kids off, either politely or otherwise, or get mad. They know what's up.

[jenny_islander]

It kinda odd to me that the 'others' who apparently have no clue how to converse go on with their lives chatting away to people of all different stripes and have no need or even knowledge of this epistle. Yet the godly folk who see no one other than family and talk about nothing other than god can see the need. It makes one wonder where the actual problem may be.

It reminds me of something the sisters at Tetanus Burger wrote about their late patriarch. IIRC he was irreligious, but very Maxwellian in a secular way. His vision for his family included such things as everyone having to carry hot water upstairs a panful at a time in order to bathe, so when some generous soul fixed the hot water heater for him, he got mad and disconnected it again. Anyway, because of his vision, it was possible to do laundry at home, but only by following an elaborate set of hacks, which he posted on the wall near the washer. It took more than a year after he went off to a nursing home for his family to tear down the list. They are putting all of their resources into cleaning up the literal junkyard he constructed on the property, but IIRC as soon as they have that done, they're getting a new washer.

But the Tetanus Burger family didn't grow up with their paterfamilias wrapping all of his control-freak-ism in God talk. I wonder if any of the Maxwell "children" will ever understand that books like this are just like the instructions for using that washer: hacks for problems that were created by one person.

[Andromeda]

It reminds me of something the sisters at Tetanus Burger wrote about their late patriarch. IIRC he was irreligious, but very Maxwellian in a secular way. His vision for his family included such things as everyone having to carry hot water upstairs a panful at a time in order to bathe, so when some generous soul fixed the hot water heater for him, he got mad and disconnected it again. Anyway, because of his vision, it was possible to do laundry at home, but only by following an elaborate set of hacks, which he posted on the wall near the washer. It took more than a year after he went off to a nursing home for his family to tear down the list. They are putting all of their resources into cleaning up the literal junkyard he constructed on the property, but IIRC as soon as they have that done, they're getting a new washer.

But the Tetanus Burger family didn't grow up with their paterfamilias wrapping all of his control-freak-ism in God talk. I wonder if any of the Maxwell "children" will ever understand that books like this are just like the instructions for using that washer: hacks for problems that were created by one person.

Liked for pointing out this blog to me--I ought to go read it. I think I could relate to some of it--my own childhood was sort of a weird "fundie but secular" thing too, and it's hard to explain to people. I think it's why I hang around fundie-snarking boards; it's the closest I've gotten to it.

[MamaJunebug]

I'm quietly cracking up -- ok, I'm chuckling at a mild volume. Listening to a Lutheran homeschooler being interviewed by a Lutheran radio host. She's cheerfully describing how her children - ages 2-10 - enjoy talking with all ages of people, and you know what? She hasn't ONCE mentioned The Maxhells' "Making Great Conversationalists"!

Apparently, just interacting with your children in appropriate, respectful ways, and - oh, this is key - permitting them to interact with others outside the family helps to make great conversationalists!

Sterivovah? Are you reading? Is this why you advise your flock to keep it in the house? Otherwise, learning how to conversate would come as naturally as learning to crawl, walk, climb?

Posers. :naughty:

[WonderingInWA]

"Conversate". LOL! :)

[Miggy]

Just so everyone knows, we've got two chapters to go! Bit of a work overload the last few days but I will finish it in the next couple of days.

[TMS]

Thanks, Miggy. I have found this thread really interesting and appreciate the reading and reporting you are doing!