The Proverbs Family shuts it all down

[bal maiden]

I really really hate to get handslappy, but I am kind of squicked out by people using the girl's full name on this board. Could we maybe call her K or KM or Proverbs Daughter or something? I know that we're all hoping that she gets out of this situation, and I think there's a good chance that, after receiving help, she could leave the fundamentalist cult that her parents exposed her to. I wouldn't want any future employers or friends to google her name and have this come up.

Maybe I'm just being sensitive. I really don't know much about how google searches work. Still, she is a minor, and I would like it if we protected her privacy in this way.

I am happy to edit her name out of my post, but can't find an edit button as am still a n00b. Can someone please point me in the right direction?

[mrs]

It makes one wonder if the Duggars knew about the sexual molestation.

I wonder about this too. Especially considering the frequency of the older Duggars daughters trips to JTTH.

Also, I know the Duggars monitor internet use, but I wonder if they would block a friend from churches blog ?

[chaotic life]

No, it's not in the victim precipitated section and while it's a fascinating book, I'm not going to re-read the entire textbook today to find this one, and it's not coming up by names--not all of the cases highlighted in the text have actual names of victims and perpetrators given to them, so that doesn't mean it's not in there. It also might have been a case that was highlighted in lecture and not actually in the textbook, but I remember a case identical to this murder in my class from two years ago.

[Many_Spaynes]

If the daughter--or anyone else who has been through Gothard mind-control following sexual abuse--is reading here, there are a few things I want to say:

1) The abuse was not your fault. You did not bring it on or encourage it by defrauding your attacker (whether through immodest dress, indecent exposure, being out from the protection of your parents, or being with evil friends).

2) Your body, soul, and spirit are NOT different parts of you that you can simply take apart like a Lego toy. Your physical body is NOT less important than your soul or spirit, and you cannot compensate or make up for sexual abuse with spiritual power (aka being "mighty in spirit").

3) You should not feel guilty or ashamed about the abuse--it doesn't matter whether they claim it was a result of disobedience or rebellion (it was not, trust me), nor do YOU bear any guilt for not reporting it to authorities. That responsibility lies with the adults in your life.

4) It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be bitter--bitter is a word some people use when they don't want to accept your pain or they want to control your emotions. It's not okay for others to do that. You don't even have to forgive your attacker, unless you decide you want to at some point. But that's YOUR decision.

5) The idea of sexual abuse as "moral vaccination" is horrific and shameful. God did not allow your abuse in order to teach you not to lust or to correct your impurities.

Note: I don't believe any of these ideas myself. These principles were taught in early versions of Gothard's seminars for "counseling" sexual abuse victims. I don't know if his teachings in this area have changed significantly over the years, but I suspect at least some of them might still be taught, in some way, at JTTH. If anyone knows otherwise, I would be very keen to learn what is currently being taught to survivors.

My god, Lemonhead, what awful, manipulative crap Gothard spews. I just want to second everything you say, whether to K or to anyone going thru this. It was never your fault, no matter what you did, wore, or how you felt, you never invited this, it's all on your abuser.

Does anyone else think a couple of boob grabs a few years apart while roughhousing (who roughouses like that w/a 15 yr old? Unless you're trying to turn it into a groping session?) doesn't quite ring true?

Which is not to diminish it if it is the whole of the story, just that I suspect more happened than what mom wrote in that bizarre post

ETA: "Moral vaccination"?!?! That is chilling. And the phallic imagery makes it so . . . ugh. I thought I really hated Gothard & his minions before but now I'm starting to see the actual, true evil in all of this.

[JenniferJuniper]

Yes, it is one thing to observe and critique/snark on someone's online presence, but quite another to interfere in their real life. Who knows what consequences may come for Kristen as a result of this FJ 'intervention'? We would not be so impressed if the fundies were intervening in our lives. I do not dispute that sexual molestation is wrong, of course, but I doubt that a teenager who was done sufficient JTTH mindbending to forgive her molester is going to be receptive to or reassured by reading a forum or emails that are talking about reporting her family to the police. She is probably scared shitless right now for many reasons... Perhaps I have just spent too much time dealing with university research ethics committees, but this whole situation of jumping from observation to intervention has made me extremely uncomfortable.

I'm not comfortable with it either and would not have personally gotten involved at any level.

However, she was posting openly on the internet and she's old enough to understand what she was doing (she's going to be 18 in a few months I believe), so I think she was looking for something. Maybe it was just reassurance from outside the family that she's not the one who is fucked up or maybe she was really looking for help. It's hard to say.

I just hope things don't get any worse for her now and that if they have, she has a plan she can put in place when her birthday comes. And that someone is looking out for the younger girls.

[Koala]

While I am uncomfortable with people contacting her personally, I am so glad that CPS was notified. This may be the one chance to protect this large group of children from an abuser and I don't think there's anyone in their lives that would have been willing to do it. I think K's willingness to speak so freely of her abuse online without any apparent idea of the reaction she would receive speaks volumes of the reaction she has gotten from her family/friends irl. They have downplayed it. It was an "accident" that was caused by her stepfather being "not right with God" and "sick", but it won't happen again because he's "right with God" now and mom is watching him 24/7....except when she's not and he's driving K back and forth and most certainly being left alone with the other children. No one in her world gives a damn and she just naturally assumed that perfect strangers wouldn't care. I am glad there are people here who did care. I am glad there are people here who are willing to step up to the plate and refuse to let another day pass without CPS knowing that this woman has condoned one daughter's abuse and continues to expose not only her own children to risk, but those of other's as well, via her daycare.

You know, I get very uncomfortable anytime I start seeing a lot of off FJ contact with the fundies irl. Commenting on their blogs, meh, that's not really much my thing, but whatever. But real life contact squicks me right out. There have been a few cases though where CPS has been notified by some of the members here and I have rested much easier because of it.

**side question** K stated that she told her mother about the abuse after JTTH. When did PM make that comment with the anecdotal abuse story that is a perfect mirror of how she perceives their own story? I tend to believe PM has known about this much longer than we have been led to believe. I also didn't like the way she referred to K "confessing" in that story. It makes her sound like the guilty one. :angry-banghead:

[JesusFightClub]

Does anyone else think a couple of boob grabs a few years apart while roughhousing (who roughouses like that w/a 15 yr old? Unless you're trying to turn it into a groping session?) doesn't quite ring true?

Me.

15 year old girls often look pretty adultish, physically. There comes a time when puberty appears (or should have appeared) and young women don't want to be grabbed and messed around with like you swing a 2 year old around in your arms or play daft games with a 7 year old. If your own dad or stepdad "roughhouses" with you when you're 15 to the extent that he "accidentally" GRABS YOUR BREASTS, all is not well.

[Morton Fan]

Me.

15 year old girls often look pretty adultish, physically. There comes a time when puberty appears (or should have appeared) and young women don't want to be grabbed and messed around with like you swing a 2 year old around in your arms or play daft games with a 7 year old. If your own dad or stepdad "roughhouses" with you when you're 15 to the extent that he "accidentally" GRABS YOUR BREASTS, all is not well.

GRABS her breasts. I can't imagine there's any way that someone could accidentally grab someone else's breasts ... several times. Ugh.

[formergothardite]

Grabbing her breast several time several years apart. No, that isn't accidental or a misunderstanding.

[Koala]

No, I don't believe for a minute it was an accident. You don't have to "get right with God" over an accident.

[Guest]

Also, it's hard to GRAB someone's breast. I have a rather large chest, and people are constantly accidentally brushing up against my breasts, it just can't be helped- they take up more room than they should. But I have never felt violated by this. It's also generally a shoulder or arm though. Even if it is accidentally a hand, it's generally obvious that it's an accident and that somebody wasn't looking and mistook it for a shoulder or something.

It strikes me as odd though that people so concerned with "purity" are allowing their teenage daughters to engage in horseplay with their stepfathers. This is a world where, if a boy's arm brushes against that of a girl he might be courting, both of their purity is lost. But a stepfather just happening to grab his step-daughter's breast? An accident of course. She needs to forgive him.

[Lainey]

I seriously can't imagine any scenario in which anyone could accidentally grab my boobs. Um...maybe if I was falling off a building and landed on them? Still, it doesn't seem likely. The mother's in complete denial, and the daughter is suffering for it. Poor kid.

Normally I wouldn't feel comfortable with FJ getting involved like this, but in this case, this woman RUNS A DAYCARE and has other people's children around this man! I really don't think there's any choice here. These parents likely don't know.

[roddma]

This is horrible and even more horrible the way PM is trying to hide it. Duggarsblog has a post from August 8 from pm describing the Duggar church. I think there may be another post. Someone should inform them.

[Koala]

I seriously can't imagine any scenario in which anyone could accidentally grab my boobs. Um...maybe if I was falling off a building and landed on them? Still, it doesn't seem likely. The mother's in complete denial, and the daughter is suffering for it. Poor kid.

Normally I wouldn't feel comfortable with FJ getting involved like this, but in this case, this woman RUNS A DAYCARE and has other people's children around this man! I really don't think there's any choice here. These parents likely don't know.

Honestly I wish to god there was a way to let them know. I am for a totally hands off approach with fundies, but this one is an exception. I'd contact these parents in a minute if I had any idea who they are. We parents have to look out for each other's kids and there is no way I could sit silently while accusations of this nature are being made. I think we must always err on the side of caution for the child. I hope she has CPS at her door bright and early tomorrow morning.

[Koala]

This is horrible and even more horrible the way PM is trying to hide it. Duggarsblog has a post from August 8 from pm describing the Duggar church. I think there may be another post. Someone should inform them.

I think it just speaks volumes. Her daughter has told her she's been molested and she's worried about deleting her damned blog and fb, lest the internet tells her daycare parents and her business get shut down. Makes me sick. One more day of those children in her custody/care is one too many.

[Mama Mia]

No, I don't believe for a minute it was an accident. You don't have to "get right with God" over an accident.

Exactly. She's trying to cover all her bases by saying it was both a minor accident, and that he wasn't right with God, but now he is.

And if its the other explanation....that he's too far gone with Alzhimers to control his actions than he certainly shouldn't be left alone with children young enough to be in daycare ! Putting any sexual abuse aside , how is he going to take care of them?

[Koala]

Exactly. She's trying to cover all her bases by saying it was both a minor accident, and that he wasn't right with God, but now he is.

And if its the other explanation....that he's too far gone with Alzhimers to control his actions than he certainly shouldn't be left alone with children young enough to be in daycare ! Putting any sexual abuse aside , how is he going to take care of them?

Not to mention that he is still driving.

[loulou]

Not to mention that he is still driving.

This is the stuff that scares me even more than the fact that the young molested girl and her sisters are at home with him.

She has DAY CARE CHILDREN IN THAT HOUSE. I've read their blog and from what she says, I think he helps out in the day care.

Thank you to whoever did the CPS reporting. I hope action is taken.

[mockingbird]

I'm not into interfering in the fundies' real lives either, except when kids are in danger. I think this is one case where the daughter K is clearly in danger not to mention their other kids and the daycare kids. I'm glad someone was able to call CPS on them and I really, really hope they will investigate.

[tenth muse]

I didn't mean to be creepy or whatever by wondering if there was a way to contact her. I'm only a few years older than K, and I guess I just thought that it was really important for her to know that none of it was her fault and that she has the right to deal with what happened to her instead of living in fear (especially considering some of the stuff she's said quite openly i.e the plan for getting away again) Having gone through something similar when I was forced to be part of fundieland, I thought maybe there was a chance she could be receptive to what I was saying, with the similar backgrounds and all.

[FJismyheadship]

Serving Him Diligently Yesterday at 7:03pm ·

We've changed our name and look, but it's still the same old web site. I had to remove some posts due to some hate filled folks out there, but we're back up and going now.

On the Facebook page

[bionicmlle]

So glad that CPS was contacted -- that's a much more appropriate approach than to address the child or perpetrator. It's not our job to "investigate."

As for the dementia issue -- it's actually relatively unusual for folks with Alzheimer's type dementia to become so sexually disinhibited. He also seems rather young and I suspect either 1) he is mis-diagnosed or 2) he had a parent with Alzheimer's dementia and that the excuse being used to justify his horrific behavior. Any dementia patient (regardless of the type) who has acted out sexually should be supervised AT ALL TIMES. If the diagnosis of dementia IS correct for this "daddy" (ugh), then the mother is at even MORE fault for her lack of supervision -- he would be at high risk, just as the children are, if he truly doesn't know what he is doing.

Is it just me or is the moniker "PM" getting totally confusing at this point? We have PossumMama, PennMommy, Private Message (and/or the army), Proverbs Mom... My brain spins!

[FJismyheadship]

SH for Serving Him better?

Although the link to the blog doesn't work.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Bionic, that is interesting! His mother had dementia, as you suspected.

[Mary C Doates]

I'm not getting anything on Facebook or any blog for them. Have they shut everything down again?