Alpha males? Beta males?

[YPestis]

Ok, I'm still making my way through the MRA blogosphere and I'm getting confused by these alpha and beta male concepts. Sunshine Mary, our favorite female MRA blogger, talks up her husband's alpha male status. Alphas are suppose to make women cream in their pants. Alphas demand and command respect from women and that is why so many alpha males are single. Modern women cannot deal with alpha males and will cry rape if they met one. That's why so many pansy males, those that accept dominant, modern females are actually beta males. It appears that betas are looked down by the MRA bloggers. However, I've read another MRA blogger who claims he is a beta but still adhere to the MRA line of submissive women. So I'm not sure if these terms are meant to show the difference MRA guys and those sissy men, or just a way to describe different types of guys. Can anyone clarify this for me?

[lilah]

The whole alpha/beta thing is based on faulty science and faulty logic.

II think it's used to justify the cultural meme that all girls want bad boys, ie alpha men are guys who are the biggest asshole in the room.

[Muriel Heslop]

I think it's supposed to describe different kinds of guys.

The Pearls use similar idiocy to describe men in groups of "Mr. Command," "Mr. Steady," and "Mr. Visionary." So that if you are married, you can learn how to best submit to your kind of husband.

Who knows, all I know is: those guys who sit around analyzing other guys and women and try to make up lists and rules to follow so they can get the chicks and the chicks will do what they want -- are doing it wrong.

[lilith]

It the excuse the make for why they are still single - it must be cause they're so alpha, too much of a man for modern women to handle, not cause they are misogynist lunatics blogging all day from their mother's basement.

[Cran]

The concept of Alpha/Beta males is unserviceable and faulty, and even the MRAs themselves recognize this.

That's why you'll find a multitude of interpretations, definitions and subdivisions ("Omega-Male") of the concept, which also don't work.

It's my impression MRAs and Pickup-Artists often overlap, but use the terms a bit differently. To a MRA, a male is alpha if he's an asshole towards women (and therefore, mostly single) and for an Artist, an alpha male is someone who gets the good looking chicks laid (being also an asshole in the process).

[Artemis]

A little article about male primate mating behaviours:

Tiddi, Barbara. "Social relationships between adult females and the alpha male in wild tufted capuchin monkeys". American Journal of Primatology.

"A study on the association of alpha male and female during the nonbreeding season in wild Capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella nigritus) examined whether alpha males are the preferred mate for females and, secondly, whether female-alpha status and relationship to the alpha-male can be explained through the individual characteristics and or social network of the female.[5] The results indicated that alpha male Capuchin are the preferred mate for adult females. However, only the alpha females had strong interactions with the alpha males by virtue of a dominance hierarchy among the females in which only the most dominant and strong females were able to interact with the alpha male."

Well, that's interesting . . . .

So if all of these MRAs are afraid of strong, dominant alpha females, then arguably, they can't be alpha males themselves. Obviously, it's the fact that they are worried about their potential alpha male status that makes them insist that alpha males require submissive females, when in fact in primates this is not true. A clear case of Omega male angst, if you ask me . . .

And the female enablers of the MRAs? Low status females, pining for the heights. (I'm looking at you, Sunshine Mary!)

Yes, I know that the 'alpha male' thing is problematic, and in wolves, for example, has been an exploded theory for a while, but animals do have dominance hierarchies (male and female dominance hierarchies as well: look at any herd of mares).

Actually the belief appears to be now that wolves tend to have 'breeder hierarchies' which may be age as well as strength related. Even in wolf packs, however, the 'breeder' male does not have excusive access to the 'breeder' female, and she is the one who solicits sex when she comes into oestrus - from whoever she want, basically, although it's likely that it will be a larger, stronger, and more experienced male. When they do pair bond for the season, the bond is mutually supportive, not one sided.

So let's just run through the situation with primates and canids, on whose purported behaviour MRAs appear to base their beliefs, again:

Primates: 'alpha' males only interact with strong, dominant, females.

Canids: 'breeder' status depends on age as well as physical characteristics, but in any case, it's the female who solicits sex and initiates a pair bond.

Primates and canids: superfluous, weak, or non-genetically-desirable (probably indicated by exuded pheromones) males simply don't mate. They may, in fact, spend quite a lot of their lives in sexual starvation, meekly babysitting the breeders' offspring, and occasionally being driven away from the pack.

Now, who does this remind me of? Oh yes, all those poor little MRAs vainly trying to turn themseves into 'alpha' males, and not succeeding.

In fact, all those married/pair bonded men, in happy, mutually satisfactory and supportive cohabitation - you know, the ones whom the MRAs think of as pussy-whipped betas?

Turns out they're the alphas, guys, 'cos they're the ones who are getting their rocks off with strong, dominant females. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[miffy]

The concept of Alpha/Beta males is unserviceable and faulty, and even the MRAs themselves recognize this.

That's why you'll find a multitude of interpretations, definitions and subdivisions ("Omega-Male") of the concept, which also don't work.

It's my impression MRAs and Pickup-Artists often overlap, but use the terms a bit differently. To a MRA, a male is alpha if he's an asshole towards women (and therefore, mostly single) and for an Artist, an alpha male is someone who gets the good looking chicks laid (being also an asshole in the process).

I agree that there is an MRA and PUA overlap, even a bit of 'Nice Guy' too. I guess they all have the same problems such as involuntary long term celibacy, neckbeards, lack of understanding when it comes to subtle social cues, water leaking into their basement 'flat' underneath the family home.

All the men I know that the MRA crowd would call alpha are extremely charming, witty & VERY popular socially. They don't have girls going after them because they are assholes, girls like them (including me at some points ;) ) because they are great people to be around whilst also being tall & attractive.

[Pam]

They are concepts that are loosely based on Evo Psych crap that, for the Manosphere, is pretty much what lilith said here:

It the excuse the make for why they are still single - it must be cause they're so alpha, too much of a man for modern women to handle, not cause they are misogynist lunatics blogging all day from their mother's basement.

But I'm not certain that they think they're still single because they're too Alpha, as the Alpha is in that top 20% of all men that 80% of all women fawn over, and if the Alpha is still single it is because he chooses to not commit himself to one woman. Alphas are the providers of the "cock carousel" that nearly all women ride while in their teens and twenties. When those "carousel-riders" get the "babies rabies" it is then that they decide that they'll settle for a Beta Male (good provider and protector, often supplicates to women rather than the inverse.......the Nice Guy). If the Alpha does choose to commit himself to one woman, well then, she has got to be that rare, elusive, jewel of a woman.

If anyone remembers the 70s sitcom Happy Days, Fonzie was the Alpha male whilst Richie Cunningham and crew were Beta males (or maybe even Omega or Zeta males......yeah, the Manosphere's Beta Male is branching out).

And I've obviously spent far too much time lurking at Sunshine Mary's blog and other areas of the Manosphere :violence-shootself:

[polecat]

They are concepts that are loosely based on Evo Psych crap that, for the Manosphere, is pretty much what lilith said here:

But I'm not certain that they think they're still single because they're too Alpha, as the Alpha is in that top 20% of all men that 80% of all women fawn over, and if the Alpha is still single it is because he chooses to not commit himself to one woman. Alphas are the providers of the "cock carousel" that nearly all women ride while in their teens and twenties. When those "carousel-riders" get the "babies rabies" it is then that they decide that they'll settle for a Beta Male (good provider and protector, often supplicates to women rather than the inverse.......the Nice Guy). If the Alpha does choose to commit himself to one woman, well then, she has got to be that rare, elusive, jewel of a woman.

If anyone remembers the 70s sitcom Happy Days, Fonzie was the Alpha male whilst Richie Cunningham and crew were Beta males (or maybe even Omega or Zeta males......yeah, the Manosphere's Beta Male is branching out).

And I've obviously spent far too much time lurking at Sunshine Mary's blog and other areas of the Manosphere :violence-shootself:

Maybe it's just me, but the cock carousel sounds like the most fun ride ever.

The most humorous part of SSM's blog is the whiny commenters who have ridiculous lists of "must haves" for the women (she must be a size zero or thinner, she must be at least a nine, she must be totally willing to hand over the reins of her life to him, she must be a devout Christian, she must be a virgin, she must be ready to have lots of wild sex -- but never on top! -- she must want oodles of children). But then they complain if a woman shoots them down, something that could only possibly occur because he's not hot enough to give her tingles, and how shallow of her to judge men based on appearance!

And just a dab of hypocrisy here: According to them, truly attractive women never shoot anyone down because they are confident in their hawtness. It's only the measly sixes, sevens and former fat chicks who shoot men down because they are insecure in their hawtness. But it doesn't work that way for men: "Because it’s an indicator of what a person’s true SMV is. Most people have inflated values of their SMVs; if they are consistently attracting low value people it means they themselves are probably low value."

"The woman recipient of the conduct always gets to decide if the conduct is 'unwanted'." <--- And this made my jaw drop just because ... I mean ... for real?! Was he dropped on his head as a child?

And please note: "(Sexual harassment laws) are intended to control unattractive men; to shield women from sexual advances from all but the hot men; to allow women to separate out the attractive men from the unattractive men; and to devalue men." So now you know. Ranking men by attractiveness levels is devaluing to them. Ranking women according to a one to ten scale is just a regular day at the office -- or blog, whatever.

Must ... stop ... reading ...

[Pam]

...Must ... stop ... reading ...

I know...I keep telling myself the same thing. But it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion!! :popcorn2:

[Pam]

The most humorous part of SSM's blog is the whiny commenters who have ridiculous lists of "must haves" for the women (she must be a size zero or thinner, she must be at least a nine, she must be totally willing to hand over the reins of her life to him, she must be a devout Christian, she must be a virgin, she must be ready to have lots of wild sex -- but never on top! -- she must want oodles of children). But then they complain if a woman shoots them down, something that could only possibly occur because he's not hot enough to give her tingles, and how shallow of her to judge men based on appearance!

Women's "shallowness" is just sinful. Period. Men's "shallowness" is righteous because....BIOLOGY!!!

I've poked them about that hypocrisy on more than one occasion....and just sat back and watched the seething and frothing that then flowed.

[dawbs]

The only palatable description of alpha/beta males I can think of is at the beginning of Christopher Moore's "Dirty Jobs"

This is the link to the clostest to a quote I can come up with at the moment:

bbs.chrismoore.com/viewtopic.php?t=7415

[CynicMom]

That's interesting, but what about the primates more closely related to humans?

From Primate Factsheets (Univ. of Wisconsin): Bonobo males have rank based on age and the fact that they are all related to each other. Females have rank based on friendship and mutual masturbation. Bonobos famously have sex "in virtually all partner combinations and in a variety of positions." This is "particularly between female Bonobos". "Females that have strong bonds keep males away from food and often attack males, biting off their fingers and toes (de Waal 1997)." So there are no "Beta's" in bonobo society, just lots of horny, in-charge females.

Remember that bonobos are just as closely related to humans as chimpanzees.

[CynicMom]

Also wanted to add, if we're talking evolution here, that humans have less sexual dimorphism than either bonobos or chimps (around 15%) which is typically taken as some sort of evolutionary evidence for sexual equality although to what extent is controversial and still under study.

Equality for the Sexes in Human Evolution? (National Academy of Sciences)

[singsingsing]

I always laugh when I see this stuff. If there is really such thing as 'alpha and beta males' then please, give me an 'beta male' all the way. I find these so-called 'alpha males' revolting in every sense, including sexually. Newsflash dumbasses, if the 'beta males' are getting more action then you are, then they're the ones doing something right. I honestly think this is hilarious. All these evil feminists and beta males are having fun, getting laid, and having fulfilling relationships with each other, while the 'alphas' are left alone to rage. Okay, have fun making your own dick submit to your authority. What a bunch of crazies.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

The most humorous part of SSM's blog is the whiny commenters who have ridiculous lists of "must haves" for the women (she must be a size zero or thinner, she must be at least a nine, she must be totally willing to hand over the reins of her life to him, she must be a devout Christian, she must be a virgin, she must be ready to have lots of wild sex -- but never on top! -- she must want oodles of children). But then they complain if a woman shoots them down, something that could only possibly occur because he's not hot enough to give her tingles, and how shallow of her to judge men based on appearance!

I'm more aware of the men's rights folks who inhabit the immigration forums that I also visit. (Hubby is Canadian.) These guys like to import often significantly younger women from impoverished foreign countries to be "traditional" wives. Because the ex-wife was a fat, shallow Western bitch who only ever loved them for their money -- while the woman that is young enough to be their daughter and is so poor that she has to shit in a hole in the ground out behind the communal family shack loves them for who they are.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It the excuse the make for why they are still single - it must be cause they're so alpha, too much of a man for modern women to handle, not cause they are misogynist lunatics blogging all day from their mother's basement.

Yep.

The appropriate response is laughter and walking away.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'm more aware of the men's rights folks who inhabit the immigration forums that I also visit. (Hubby is Canadian.) These guys like to import often significantly younger women from impoverished foreign countries to be "traditional" wives. Because the ex-wife was a fat, shallow Western bitch who only ever loved them for their money -- while the woman that is young enough to be their daughter and is so poor that she has to shit in a hole in the ground out behind the communal family shack loves them for who they are.

Oh HELL yes. If you want a depressing afternoon of internet reading, just go read the international marriage forums.

No one wants to marry American women because they're all too fat and feminist and have forgotten those good ol' traditional values. So they go abroad, where they can find smoking hot women who are willing to answer their every beck and call, and know that they need to stay smoking hot (because the men brag on the forums about how they make sure they remind these women that there are always more where they came from, of course). Lots of them are happy to be valued for their money though, they'll make a point of how the old traditional "I make money so you owe me sex" marriage contract is the one true natural way to be, and they're so alpha because they bring home money, etc. As long as she's hot and deferential, it's all good.

But then some fraction of these assholes find out that hey, guess what? Just like they were using people, they were also being used, when one of the newly arrived women gets more English skills and a foothold in the US and promptly dumps them. Hahahaha.

(Mind - I definitely don't mean to imply that international marriage itself is a bad thing. Just this specific awful subset of it...)

[dirtyhippiegirl]

Oh HELL yes. If you want a depressing afternoon of internet reading, just go read the international marriage forums.

No one wants to marry American women because they're all too fat and feminist and have forgotten those good ol' traditional values. So they go abroad, where they can find smoking hot women who are willing to answer their every beck and call, and know that they need to stay smoking hot (because the men brag on the forums about how they make sure they remind these women that there are always more where they came from, of course). Lots of them are happy to be valued for their money though, they'll make a point of how the old traditional "I make money so you owe me sex" marriage contract is the one true natural way to be, and they're so alpha because they bring home money, etc. As long as she's hot and deferential, it's all good.

But then some fraction of these assholes find out that hey, guess what? Just like they were using people, they were also being used, when one of the newly arrived women gets more English skills and a foothold in the US and promptly dumps them. Hahahaha.

(Mind - I definitely don't mean to imply that international marriage itself is a bad thing. Just this specific awful subset of it...)

I think a lot of the women marry not understanding the currency exchange -- ie. the ol' streets paved with gold idea. Your overweight, high-end-of-middle-aged, balding, red-faced guy who makes $65k a year and lives in FlyoverState, USA seems like a catch when $65K/year in the Philippines will buy you a really nice house. Get to the US and realize that you're stuck in a thoroughly middle-class lifestyle with an ugly, fat husband who doesn't want to send money back to your family and, yeah...

I also like the duality where Western women are both fat and slobs but also shallow while non-Western women are perceived as hot, thin, good-dressers, but definitely not shallow.

[tenth muse]

Give me a beta male any day.

[Ariel]

Also wanted to add, if we're talking evolution here, that humans have less sexual dimorphism than either bonobos or chimps (around 15%) which is typically taken as some sort of evolutionary evidence for sexual equality although to what extent is controversial and still under study.

Equality for the Sexes in Human Evolution? (National Academy of Sciences)

Hai! Anthropology major here. This is my happy nerd place. :D

Generally sexual dimorphism (differences in size between genders) is related to monogamy. The current theory is that species that have the least amount of sexual dimorphism are more likely to be monogamous. Gibbons have virtually no dimorphism and bond for life, while gorillas have a high rate of dimorphism and exist in 1 male, multiple female groups. Humans are considered to be on the lower end of the scale and are more likely to be monogamous. I would argue that humans are mostly monogamous but don't necessarily mate for life. Humans are unique because we're the only primates (besides those in captivity) that regularly live past breeding age.

What MRA's really need to keep in mind is that Alpha males, by definition, must be genetically fit. Fitness, biologically, is defined by the amount of children you produce that survive to adulthood. For example, The Duggars are much more 'fit' than most Americans :roll: .These guys aren't getting with the ladies and they certainly aren't having babies. By definition, this makes them "beta".

[tenth muse]

I have this bizarre desire to hang out somewhere with pick up artists, so if they try to proposition me I can tell them to GTF away from me. It probably wouldn't make them think, though. I'd just be an evil feminist who wants to control and devalue men and their sexuality.

[salex]

Give me a beta male any day.

Here you go!

[jenny_islander]

But then some fraction of these assholes find out that hey, guess what? Just like they were using people, they were also being used, when one of the newly arrived women gets more English skills and a foothold in the US and promptly dumps them. Hahahaha.

We had a case like that years ago, where a Russian mail-order bride went to the community college "to improve her English" and got a business degree as well, then started a business--and left him because while she was perfectly willing to stay married to him, she was not going back in the kitchen. I had a job that involved reading court files at the time, and wow, the whiiiiiiiiining from mister Bawwww I Won't Eat Takeout Steak On My Wife's Income I Want Her to Drop Everything and Make Me a Sammich Waaaaaa. It's like, dude, your wife is making sure you don't have to live on your retirement savings, shut up and eat the steak! Anyway, the court granted her a divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable differences.

I also like the duality where Western women are both fat and slobs but also shallow while non-Western women are perceived as hot, thin, good-dressers, but definitely not shallow.

"Shallow" in this instance means "doesn't think I'm deep and can't be bothered to pretend that she does."

[mostlylurking]

According to Rollo, one of the biggest figures in the manosphere, Ariel Castro was an alpha for the 11 years he kept his captives, except towards the end where he got too "comfortable" and "sloppy."

therationalmale [dot] com/2013/08/05/dominance/