My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding

[tabitha2]

I have always believed they take the Biblical and/or very old fashioned,country views that man has dominion over animals and that they are for the use of people either as food, for monetary gain or for work but not usually as pampered or even house pets.

[emmiedahl]

I have always believed they take the Biblical and/or very old fashioned,country views that man has dominion over animals and that they are for the use of people either as food, for monetary gain or for work but not usually as pampered or even house pets.

A lot of old school people had that belief. But most treated their animals better. My grandmother had a farm and drew a huge distinction between pets and working animals. Yet she treated her working animals well. I remember her being concerned about a sheep that had hip problems being in pain. It was breeding stock, its pain did not affect its ability to bear young, but she was worried that it might be hurting. You have to be a first class asshole to not care about a suffering animal. There is nothing new about that.

[Anxious Girl]

A lot of old school people had that belief. But most treated their animals better. My grandmother had a farm and drew a huge distinction between pets and working animals. Yet she treated her working animals well. I remember her being concerned about a sheep that had hip problems being in pain. It was breeding stock, its pain did not affect its ability to bear young, but she was worried that it might be hurting. You have to be a first class asshole to not care about a suffering animal. There is nothing new about that.

That was kind of your grandmother. I shouldn't have been so generalzing in my above post and apologize for that, too.

[BlondeAgent007]

I do like the the Travellers don't have strict rules about dress. I think how you dress is a poor indicator of moral character. I have a friend who loves to dress provocatively. I think she just likes the attention factor, but she is one of the kindest, most caring people I know. She's probably one of the only really religious people I know who has never asked me about my own faith, but can also non offensively share hers. That takes a lot.

[She Who Laughs]

I'm not saying there aren't Amish communities that treat their animals poorly. My beef was with the generalization that makes it sound like ALL Amish do that. Obviously they don't ALL treat their animals poorly because I lived in the middle of a large community of Amish and spent a lot of time with them and never saw a single incidence of abuse or poor treatment. Are other Amish communities different? I'm sure they are. But just as you all don't like the generalizations about ALL Roma, or ALL blacks, or ALL whatever, I don't think making sweeping generalizations about the Amish is appropriate either.

[emmiedahl]

I have no problem with showing skin, but I think the overt sexualization of young girls is appalling. It is the opposite of modesty, but it is based on the same concept: that women exist mainly as sexual objects. Modesty is about covering up that sexuality, and the Traveller costumes on the show are about displaying it as conspicuously as possible. But they are the same basic idea: women dressing for men.

About the Amish, these problems are huge in their community and the other Amish, who supposedly are policing each other, do not seem to see it as a problem. The habit of working horses almost to death and then replacing them when their bodies give out is common in their culture. The fact that they consider this preferable to an internal combustion engine says a lot about their priorities.

They will use machinery where it makes *their* life easier, but the horses? Fuck'em.

[formergothardite]

I also find it quite puzzling that the Rom claim persecution and want acceptance, yet when one of their children marries outside of their culture, its like a social taboo. Even if the spouse is committed to living a traveller lifestyle, they are never truly accepted into their community. I would think people looking for people not to judge them wouldn't be so judgey themselves.

Why is it puzzling that after being persecuted, discriminated against, abused, shoved to the fringes of society, and in general being painted as a group of people who are nothing but lazy thieves for a very, very long time they aren't too thrilled about getting involved with the cultures that have done those things to them?

[BlondeAgent007]

Emmie, I think the difference is that they don't tend to see it as a sexed up little girl, just a little girl dressing the way other little girls around her dresses. It's not nearly as bad as the mothers who put their children in child beauty pageants, in my opinion. A little girl in a skimpy outfit is different than a little girl airbrushed tan, fake eyelashes, fake hair, gobs of make up, and fake teeth. I've seen those moms put acrylics on really small girls, put in contacts, there was even that one mom who injected her own child with botox.

Some people have a really big issue with little girls going topless because you can see her "boobs". I see nothing wrong with it, so long as by the time she actually grows boobs shes wearing one. I think accusing a seven year old of showing off their boobs is a little rediculous

[BlondeAgent007]

Why is it puzzling that after being persecuted, discriminated against, abused, shoved to the fringes of society, and in general being painted as a group of people who are nothing but lazy thieves for a very, very long time they aren't too thrilled about getting involved with the cultures that have done those things to them?

They're not getting involved with other culture. Another person from another culture is adopting their culture because they, on some level, must be able to find value in it.

[xDreamerx]

After watching last week's episode, I wondered what the appeal would be for an outsider to join the culture? The young woman featured was pregnant though, so maybe she was pressured by his family, her own family or both to marry. She said she came from a small town and hadn't seen very much so maybe the idea of traveling appealed to her. I just find it hard to imagine going from someone who had dreams and wanted an education to someone willing to be a housewife in a society where education is amazingly undervalued and domestic violence is quite common.

[formergothardite]

Yes, but after so much persecution, letting the cultures that persecuted them into their culture would be very hard. They are so hated that the Holocaust survivors are still not treated equally to other survivors, so yeah, they are going to have a mistrust of people who are outside of their culture. If that is to change, it goes back to what I said earlier, the discrimination agaisnt them has to change first.

[emmiedahl]

Yes, but after so much persecution, letting the cultures that persecuted them into their culture would be very hard. They are so hated that the Holocaust survivors are still not treated equally to other survivors, so yeah, they are going to have a mistrust of people who are outside of their culture. If that is to change, it goes back to what I said earlier, the discrimination agaisnt them has to change first.

They will continue to be insular as long as they perceive themselves as being persecuted. They have been chased from community to community for thousands of years. It is normal to be suspicious of the outside world when it has been mainly a source of pain and misery.

You see some version of the same suspicion in the Chassidic community. The recent molestation scandals have caused a lot of hand-wringing about chillul hashem among the haredim, and I think people cover them up for exactly that reason. Really, God can take care of himself, they should focus on the moral issues within their culture that are leading to the abuse. But in both cases, the defensiveness is reactive and will continue until they stop feeling persecuted.

[Artemis]

What I find astonishing is that nobody has snarked on their patriarchal society other than to tell me that you don't agree with it. So, why aren't then getting the same snark publicity as Gothard/ATI, VF, etc.? Why are they getting a free pass? Because of past persecution? Do I need to remind you that there isn't a single racial/ethnic/religious group in history that hasn't been persecuted? Instead of addressing those questions you are deflecting because it's no much easier play the race, persecution, and discrimination cards than to answer a few simple questions.

Genie, no one is giving them a free pass. They are criticised for the way they live wherever they go. And they are persecuted - I have personal experience of teaching small traveller and Roma children to whom that persecution was very real - and if you'd ever seen a little boy cowering and whimpering in a corner, rocking and shivering, biting his hands until they bled because he was so afraid of his tormentors, perhaps you wouldn't be so bloody smug, you stupid ignorant bitch.

They don't get the same snark publicity as Gothard/ATI/VF because a) they are not in your face like ATI/VF/VGothard, b) they are mainly flying under people's radar because people are generally ignorant about them, as is clear from comments on this board, and c) they are not trying to take over the government and legislate to make people live like them. Oh, and they don't have a massive online presence - they LIKE to fly under the radar: it's kept them as safe as they've ever been for centuries.

Also, by comparing them with Gothard, ATI, VF you're just showing your ignorance again. Gothard/ATI/VF are relatively new Christian cults with an incoherent set of beliefs and practices. They also proselytise.

The Roma are an ancient culture with a diverse but internally coherent set of ethnicities, languages/dialects, customs, laws, history and mythology, rather like group such as the Ashkenazi Jews, the Basques of the Pyrenees, and the Karen of Burma. (And they most decidedly do not proselytise.)

As such, they have some cultural markers with can be seen as unacceptable because, for the most part, they are or appear to be anachronistic. They have not, like VF.Gothard and ATI re-created a spurious and culturally incoherent set of practices designed primarily to oppress and demean. They have simply inherited cutural practices that many of them do now question, and because of this it is to be expected that there will be a gradual alignment with more mainstream practices, and a gradual but definite relinquishment of the more undesirable ones: e.g. I know at least one Roma family where the girls were properly educated.

Fortunately for the Roma, they're not dependent on you for their survival - which is just as well, as it looks to me like you'd have them in 're-education' camps before the cat could lick her arse. Now what about going and actually educating yourself?

[formergothardite]

Genie offers understanding to white Southerners who use racist words because they are portrayed negatively sometimes in the media, yet wants to destroy the Roma culture.

[geniebelle6901]

Genie, to answer your question, of course we have had other people do things they werent supposed to during a party. However, they stood out to me because they broke SO many rules. They didn't give us a proper head count, making them overcapacitied for the room they booked. That's not just inconveniencing us. It broke the fire code for the room, which was max 300. They tried to tell us we didn't set up enough tables and chairs, trying to make it our fault that they fucked up. We had to put people in tables in the hallway, and dinner was over an hour late because we had to conjour up a whole slew of dinners we didn't have. it wasn't a buffet, it was a sit down dinner. when you have a sit down dinner, you need a head count. we always make an extra 15 or so dinners, in case there is some kind of problem. But after fifteen or so, it really starts to affect the food. People were outraged with our staff that they were in tables in the hallway, they paid 60 dollars to come and had to sit in a hallway because the person running the event didn't bother to get a real headcount.

And yes, other parties have snuck in alcohol before. However, when they were told to remove it, I have never seen people react in such a self righteous way. Like we were being horrible to take their booze from them. When you have a party at a banquet facility, the facility is responsible for all the drunk guests there. If we don't have control over the alcohol, how can we possibly regulate anything? And making people stay three hours late because the guests didn't feel like leaving when they were supposed to is downright rude and atrocious. they were rude, overstayed their welcome, and didn't follow the rules. Period. I don't see why they should get a pass for that. If they had behaved appropriately, I wouldn't remember them so specifically. I've worked hundreds of weddings and functions. I had never met travellers before that event, hell, I thought gypsies were a myth.

Thanks, Lindsay. That explains a lot. BTW, I do believe you.

[geniebelle6901]

I also find it quite puzzling that the Rom claim persecution and want acceptance, yet when one of their children marries outside of their culture, its like a social taboo. Even if the spouse is committed to living a traveller lifestyle, they are never truly accepted into their community. I would think people looking for people not to judge them wouldn't be so judgey themselves.

THIS! It's the very definition of hypocrite!

[RR88]

Of course not... genocide is never the answer. I think the fact that they are so secretive about so much (finances, especially) is very telling. I really don't care whether or not someone wants to use a toilet to defecate, or if they want to live on the road. I have a problem with people that don't pay taxes and destroy other people's things.

The Amish do a lot of things I don't agree with, but in the process they really don't hurt anyone. I think they should require more education, but the education they DO receive adequately prepares them for their unique lifestyle. And even though leaving is hard, they do have the option to explore other cultures, and with rumspringa, the option to leave. The Roma make it difficult for their children to marry outside of their own group, let alone choose any kind of lifestyle that is different from their own. and I really don't see why they can't keep their culture and still follow the rules the rest of society has to follow.

As a libertarian, I find your statements odd. Do you not believe in a right to privacy, or am I misunderstanding you? No person is entitled to another's financial information.

[formergothardite]

THIS! It's the very definition of hypocrite!

Why exactly, do you not want to offer any of your understanding to the Roma when you do so to fellow Southerners who use the "N" word?

[BlondeAgent007]

No, I don't think that they should have to show anybody their income tax return or anything. But the only way to fight a stereotype is to be open and honest about what may or may not be true about a stereotype. The LGBT community are willing to talk about their sexuality, even though its nobody's business who someone chooses as a sex partner. The gay community still faces a lot of discrimination, but has been able to come a long way in a relatively short period of time by educating people about themselves. The gay friends I have had were never elusive about questions. They have reached out to the public for awareness, instead of further isolating themselves as the Traveler's do. Being secretive only leads people to believe they have things to hide. The only time I get nervous being pulled over is if I know I have been speeding, or driving like an idiot. If not, then I know it must be a broken tail light and I don't bother getting all worked up over it. When people act guilty, a lot of times it's because they are.

[valsa]

No, I don't think that they should have to show anybody their income tax return or anything. But the only way to fight a stereotype is to be open and honest about what may or may not be true about a stereotype. The LGBT community are willing to talk about their sexuality, even though its nobody's business who someone chooses as a sex partner. The gay community still faces a lot of discrimination, but has been able to come a long way in a relatively short period of time by educating people about themselves. The gay friends I have had were never elusive about questions. They have reached out to the public for awareness, instead of further isolating themselves as the Traveler's do. Being secretive only leads people to believe they have things to hide. The only time I get nervous being pulled over is if I know I have been speeding, or driving like an idiot. If not, then I know it must be a broken tail light and I don't bother getting all worked up over it. When people act guilty, a lot of times it's because they are.

Fuck you.

When I got my first job ever, I had a girlfriend and was too scared to mention her (specifically, her gender) until I had been working there for over three months. There are tons of LGBT people who have to hide their sexuality and that's absolutely not a reflection of anything wrong with them. I've also driven with black friends who've been pulled over for no goddamn reason (for a third time that month) and you can bet your ass that they were nervous. There's a reason that the phrases "Driving While Black" and "Walking While Black" exist in our vernacular.

Tell me, is there any part of you that does not benefit from privilege? Even most people who do live with privilege are able to empathize with those who are discriminated against. You, however, seem to be blind to why everyone is not able to react the same way to the world as an (I'm just guessing) white, middle class, Christian, heterosexual, cisgender woman.

[valsa]

And aren't these just generalizations about the Amish? I lived right smack in the middle of a large Amish community for several years and I was impressed with how well they treated their animals. They treated their animals better than many people treat their children. I never once saw or heard of any instances of them being abusive toward their animals. The horses were always well fed and groomed and I never saw any Amish person raise a hand (or whip or stick) to their horses. Animals that were to be food lived in great conditions (unlike so many factory farms) and were slaughtered humanely.

No, they are acknowledgements of serious social issues in mainstream Amish society. Generalizations would be if I said all Amish beat their animals and molest children. As for your experience, maybe you lived in near an Amish community that did not practice these horrible things or maybe they weren't done out in the open (especially since things like the sexual abuse are covered up) or maybe there were out in the open and you just didn't see what was right in front of you.

[longskirtlotsakids]

Everybody should treat both people and animals with decency and respect. (Is this weird?) And yes, the Amish treat their animals better than you treat your children.

Oh woah, nellie. FIrst off, I treat my children with love, respect, and encourage them to follow their own passions, all the while teaching them respect for other points of view. I feed them good home grown food and make sure they get plenty of exercise, sleep, and alone time.

However, the Amish I live next to are downright freaking horrible to their animals. 1) They are famous in Lancaster and Intercourse, PA< for running their horrendous puppy mills. 2) I have personally seen the Amish brutalize horses. This includes beating, gelding with NO anesthesia (they will do it for $25 bucks here!) tying heads up, working them with injury, and leaving them to "work themselves out." This last phrase is used to indicate when a horse is so sick they just turn it out to pasture and let it die in whatever horrible manner. Colic, prolapsed uterus, laminitis are what I have personally seen. The laminitis one was so horrible (imagine a horse with its hooves falling off and blood everywhere) that I offered to take it home and shoot it and bury it. They still wanted to to see if it would live long enough to take to slaughter auction.

It's great that the Amish you know treat their animals so well. I am not being sarcastic- I truly hope your statement is honest. My neighboring Amish are of the oldest, strictest order however- the WI Amish- so I wonder if there is some type of philosophical correlation.

[Witsec7]

Gelding without anesthesia a favorite of the Amish, regardless of species. I have no tolerance for those who abuse their children or animals. Yea tell me its fucking Christ-like and see if I give you a pass on the great wheel of karma.

[formergothardite]

I may be wrong, but I think Anxious Girl was referring to the fact that She Wears a Funny Hat proudly hit her small children. So the Amish who live near her, if they aren't abusing their animals, then they treat their animals better than she treated her children. At least that is how I took her comment.

[geniebelle6901]

Going back to the show here. Check this out:

http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/ ... 8-349-1308

It's Pat Baby's listing in Merchant Circle. Read it very carefully and then check out the one and only review. It pre-dates the airing (but probably not the filming) of MBFAGW.

Now check this out: http://experts.merchantcircle.com/busin ... 8-349-1308

Notice how it says make checks payable to Patrick Kelly. Hmm....if he's running a reputable business the checks should be make payable to a company not an individual.

On that same episode we saw Pat Baby parade his underage daughter down the streets of Boston in that revealing party outfit. At the first party a lot of slut-shaming going on there. "Gorger girl showing too much of her who-ha" (they all looked dressed the same to me). Then Priscilla tries to explain that gypsy girls may dress and dance a little more sexy but they won't be all over the boys unless you're a dirty girl. In my book she just flat out called "gorger girls" sluts. Not cool. In my book this is worse than all the talk about NIKE, defrauding, and purity by the Duggars whether there was creative editing and scripting or not.