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Breaking MAXWELL news/Liz cancelled the wedding to Joe


Lillybee

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here's a shitload of pics <>

Thanks theologygeek! It looks like Steve responded to one of the poster's comments, in the link you provided above, and stated that Joseph and Elizabeth were working together on decisions that needed to be made about the house (whatever Steve's version of "working together" means).

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Elizabeth wouldn't have been happy as a Maxwell. Her family likes to have fun. Elizabeth took art classes. They go to Disney. Seriously, Steve-o would have flipped out about the time Elizabeth asked Joseph if she could enroll Little Maxwell in Art Classes or when she wanted to pack up Uriah and head to Orlando. Good thing Elizabeth realized this was not for her.

I also agree with the person up thread who emailed Steve about his success rate with courtship. He got lucky with Anna Marie....

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Guest Anonymous

From Google Reader

It’s Time to Fly, Our Son!

by Steve

Joseph and Elizabeth, Engaged June 25th, 2012

“But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.â€

–Isaiah 40:31

More Pictures with Joseph and Elizabeth

by Sarah

We are all thrilled with Joseph and Elizabeth’s engagement! The Lord truly has been leading and guiding every step of the way. Elizabeth is going to be an amazing wife for Joseph. Wedding plans are well underway, and we’ll let you know when the date is official.

We thought you might enjoy some pictures from our time with Elizabeth’s family. We were able to stop in for a few days on our way home from Pennsylvania.

Love,

Sarah

There were so many of us we had to split into two tables.

Family Bible times were great!

Monday evening, June 25th! Joseph and Elizabeth announce their engagement to the waiting families. Excitement runs high!

Hugs all around.

We all sat around and wanted to hear the story about how Joseph proposed to Elizabeth, and there was much laughter and joy as we marveled in God’s goodness!

Tuesday evening, after family Bible time, we had a special time of prayer for Joseph and Elizabeth. Almost every member of the family, even down to the younger ones, laid hands on J&E and prayed for them. By the end, there was hardly a dry eye in the room. It was truly a moving, tender time as we blessed J&E.

The evening before we left, we did engagement photos.

Joseph and Elizabeth’s desire it to glorify the Lord Jesus in every way through their upcoming marriage.

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.†–Matthew 5:16

The Story

by Joseph

It has been a very joyous last couple of months for Elizabeth and me, and we wanted to share a little of what the LORD has been doing in our lives. There has been so much going on, and we apologize for not getting this posted sooner. Developing a relationship, remodeling a house, having a normal job, and planning a wedding has seemed to fill up every moment and more of each day!

First, we want to thank you for all of your prayers. We feel them, and they are such a blessing to us. Thank you for your encouragement; it means so much to us! It has been a tremendous faith-building experience to see how and what God has done and is doing, starting back in April.

The Background

We officially “met†Elizabeth’s family when her parents flew to attend a conference in Anaheim, California, several years ago. After that, her family came to a number of our conferences that were closer to their home. At a conference last October, my sisters enjoyed several conversations with Elizabeth and her sisters. Then, in April, our families got together and had a wonderful time fellowshipping with each other in the LORD.

The Courtship

During those days of family interactions and thereafter, the LORD began strongly putting Elizabeth on my heart as the one that He had for me. I prayed about it, and brought it to my dad and mom. After discussing it with them, more prayer, and fasting, we felt God’s leading and His peace.

I then approached Elizabeth’s dad expressing what God was putting on my heart and asking about the possibility of a courtship. Elizabeth’s dad and I had a number of phone conversations over the course of a couple weeks. Quite quickly, the LORD gave Elizabeth’s parents peace to tell Elizabeth about my interest. When they shared that with her, she was very excited.

I visited Elizabeth’s family the end of May. The LORD completely confirmed that she was the one for me during that trip, and she felt the same. We were both ready to start a courtship. Two weeks later, I again flew out, but this time I surprised her. With each passing week, the LORD’s confirmation of our relationship was strengthened.

The Engagement

I kept communication going with Elizabeth’s dad during our courtship, and soon I was asking him for his and Elizabeth’s mom’s blessing and permission for me to propose to her. That was also quickly given plus the blessing from my parents. I was delighted to be able to propose to Elizabeth when our family visited hers the end of June.

Elizabeth and I and our families are so grateful for His confirmation and leading in this relationship. We are extremely excited to see how God is going to use us. Our prayer is that we follow God’s best in everything in our lives together. One of those choices for us has been something you might have noticed in the pictures. We have maintained this courtship and engagement as a “no-touch†relationship (1 Corinthians 7:1). We feel this gives us the opportunity for our hearts and minds to become united without the complication of physical involvement and eliminates the possibility of moral failure in the relationship.

Wedding Plans

And the wedding date? Because Elizabeth and I know our marriage is God’s best, we have really sought His timing for our wedding. This has been a source of much prayer, because of the complications of two busy families. Through prayer and other affirmations, God has amazingly put together the date of August 18th for our wedding.

Thank you all so much for your prayers. You are such a blessing to us!

In Christ,

Joseph and Elizabeth

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven†(Matthew 5:16).

Preparing For The Big Weekend

by Sarah

It’s August, and that means we’re in wedding month. To be extremely exact, we’re down to just 15 days until the day! We praise the Lord for bringing Elizabeth to Joseph for his life partner. They are so perfect for each other.

Yes, there are many preparations to be done. It has been a delight to see the family pull together and stretch themselves. There is house work, sewing Bethie and Abigail’s flower girl dresses, errands, ministry projects, wedding items, and keeping up with normal life. As busy as we are, we know that Elizabeth’s family is even busier with all the details of the wedding.

As I’m sure everyone knows, the guy’s family is in charge of the rehearsal dinner.The girls have been planning how they will decorate for that dinner. With a budget in hand, they decided a trip to the thrift store was in order to see if they could find things to begin their decorating. We like our Ft. Leavenworth thrift store. The friendly and helpful ladies who run it are incredible: they keep things organized, tidy, and clean. I decided to bring my camera along to share the time with you all.

Actually, that butterfly birdhouse is for Elizabeth, and the embroidery projects Anna Marie found for a sweet lady at church who loves to do needlework.

Anna found those little buckets behind other items. You do have to have sharp eyes when looking!

One side of the store is $6 per bag. The only rule is you have to be able to staple it shut.

The items we bought for the decorating were less than $22. We were able to get many items for such a small price.

We enjoyed the outing with Anna Marie. Joshua stayed home with Daddy.

After the Post thrift store, we went to two others in town, but we didn’t find much there. We also stopped at the Dollar store and procured the large bucket in the background. Now that you’ve seen a little peek at what was purchased, you’ll have to see how they are transformed when combined with other things the girls are planning. Another shopping stop will be JoAnn’s and Hobby Lobby on Monday.

The next two posts on the docket, unless I think of something that supersedes them, are Christina’s first Sunday at church and the Lord’s provision of–you’ll find out.

Love,

Sarah

“She looketh well to the ways of her

household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.â€

Proverbs 31:27

Broken Hearts

by Steve

It is with grieving and humble hearts that we come to you letting you know that Joseph and Elizabeth’s wedding has been cancelled. As we have shared our joys and excitement with you over this relationship, we also want you to know of our hurts and sadnesses. Because this involves another family, in respecting their privacy, we don’t feel we should share details or answer questions. We can say that Elizabeth decided Saturday morning that she didn’t have peace about marrying Joseph. She said that it had nothing to do with him but only with her. While we have felt God’s leading in Joseph’s courtship and engagement to Elizabeth, we also accept His leading in closing it down. Now there are two hurting families, and we ask for your prayers for Elizabeth, her family, Joseph, and our family.

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.†(Romans 8:28).

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She looked *so* happy and excited in those engagement photos. She didn't look stunned or scared like Sarah Reith. Her smile was genuine. Something big must have happened to shake her out of it.

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As much as I'd like to think that FJ could have played a small part in exposing The Cult Of Steve to the Muncks, it seems that fundies excell at dissonance reduction, hence any information that something might not be exactly as it appears is rejected immediately.

I'm imagining EM may have said something like "Is the yard going to be fenced in time for me bring my dog when I move in or will my parents need to bring him out later?" And Joseph would have said, "No dogs, ever! Not on MY hardwood floors!"

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Well hot damn! Way to go, Elizabeth--hopefully this brush with extremism will set you on a path in the opposite direction. Or at least a slightly less extreme direction.

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For the rest of her life Elizabeth will be able to look back at this and KNOW she did the right thing.

Watching these courtships implode always gives me hope that patriarchy/fundamentalism is not long for this world. They really do nothing better than the rest of us, and frequently just make things worse.

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Wow. I totally agree with all that has been said. They were not a good match in terms of fundieness, and I have hopes that she will break free and think "WTF was I thinking?" As for him, I hope he gets to live in the house, and develop as a person.

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Broken Hearts

Posted on August 12, 2012 by Steve

It is with grieving and humble hearts that we come to you letting you know that Joseph and Elizabeth’s wedding has been cancelled. As we have shared our joys and excitement with you over this relationship, we also want you to know of our hurts and sadnesses. Because this involves another family, in respecting their privacy, we don’t feel we should share details or answer questions. We can say that Elizabeth decided Saturday morning that she didn’t have peace about marrying Joseph. She said that it had nothing to do with him but only with her. While we have felt God’s leading in Joseph’s courtship and engagement to Elizabeth, we also accept His leading in closing it down. Now there are two hurting families, and we ask for your prayers for Elizabeth, her family, Joseph, and our family.

The fundy version of, "It's not you, it's me."

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While I'm glad Elizabeth had the courage to break an engagement that she felt uncomfortable with, I feel bad about "celebrating" a young couple's breakup. Say what you will about the Maxwells, Joseph probably had fond feelings for Elizabeth and vice versa. It's not his fault that he is part of such a cultish family, a family that he is only now capable of breaking away from. Maybe this will be a wake up call to him that his family is *not* the norm, even among "like-minded" families. He is very young and it's hard to hard to break up with someone that you thought was going to spend the rest of his life with. I bet Elizabeth is also saddened by this, even if she was the one to call it off.

As for reasons for the broken engagement. It could be that speed at which this engagement occurred. As others noted, the two barely courted (two months?!) before setting a quick wedding date. There's no getting to know each other. The distance and their restrictions means any contact is sporadic and heavily chaperoned. I think Elizabeth realized that she need to "know" a person better before allowing herself to come under someone's "headship". A thinking gal, even in fundie-land, must realize they need to be extra careful of any courting males because marriage is permanent and they are expected to do as their husband says. That's a pretty big commitment for anyone!

For Elizabeth, who just courtship sometime in April, she probably figured even if the courtship was short, the engagement would be long enough for her to "get to know" Joseph. Instead, we get this quickie wedding date. Worse, she has to move to Kansas City (which, in of itself, is not unreasonable request) so she will be isolated from her family as well.

I think realizing that the Maxwells are more conservative than her is also giving pause. Maybe during their short correspondences, she realized the Maxwells say 'no' to a lot of acceptable fundie practices. That probably heightened her fear of what she was walking into. All of this might still have been acceptable if their courtship and engagement had been longer. Just getting to know the Maxwells better may have assuaged her fears. Even such a weird family like the Maxwells may be more palpable once their practices are allowed to percolate for a while in Elizabeth's head. Truthfully, it would take most fundies a while to digest all the Maxwells' restrictions.

I don't know what the Maxwells were thinking when they decided to let such a quick wedding go through. I guess, in their infinite defense of "purity", they idealize the shorter the time spent with the opposite sex unmarried, the better. You know, to prevent sexual mishaps. Also, since it was a son marrying, Steve probably figured it's not a big deal what the girl's family is like since she'll be following the Maxwell edict. Joseph was raised in this weird Maxwell world, and spent the majority of his teenage years after the family went fundie crazy. He probably didn't know how to interact with girls. In his mind, once he was financially ready, he just need to pick a pretty girl from a conservative "enough" family and then that was it. The idea of romancing her, or getting to know her may never have entered his mind since it was all about marrying a girl, not wooing her.

Anyways, this is a sad turn of events for the young couple. I really hope Joseph learns from this, maybe realize that his family is scaring off even other fundies and start changing. I hope Elizabeth will realize the vulnerable state that submission gives to a woman, as a marriage to a cultish family would force her into a possible abusive living situation with no recourse. Hey, who knows....maybe Sarah Maxwell will come around that it's her family's cultish behavior that is preventing her from getting married, not because God isn't ready for her to have her own husband.

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I hope that this cancelled engagement/wedding is also a wake-up call to Elizabeth's parents and all other fundie parents who encourage their children to rush into marriage. Seems to me that they may have been so blinded by the fact that Liz would be marrying into "fundie royalty" that they didn't seriously take a moment to consider the altar that they were about to sacrifice their daughter upon. Granted, it would, and should have been Elizabeth's decision in the end, but being so young and sheltered she could've certainly used some guidance and rational thought from her parents as she tried to make her decision. I know fundies are always in a huge rush to 'get down the aisle', but 4 months and only 3 meetings does seem to be a bit extreme--even by their own standards. I'm sure Liz's mind was all over the place the past couple of months, and given her upbringing and the family's belief about courtship, I'm sure she would have thought it rude to tell Joseph that she would need some time to think about his request.

I do wish Liz and Joseph well and hope that they will be able to move on with their lives and find someone who is truly compatible with them. I also hope they remember the example they have just set--you don't have to marry the first person that attracts you.

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You'd think changes like this would make them realize that it's not God doing anything, it's them, actually make a decision as human beings, and occasionally choosing wrongly.

Clearly they have to scrub their blog because all those old posts have about God laying it on their hearts and God directing it all and this is pure because it's God's will and all the rest - heck, in one of the comments asking Steve-O if perhaps the two betrothed shouldn't get to know each other better first, Steve-O snarked back that far more important was knowing God because he's the one directing it all and he knows best, or some of the usual stuff like that. It doesn't do well for the brand to have such talk up there saying God did it all, once it's fallen apart and not worked out.

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From Google Reader

Of course Joe didn't do anything "wrong", it was all her "fault"... :naughty:

Maybe if they'd met more "casually" and had the chance to develope a relationship at a more "normal" rate, they would have married. Steve may have been the one to screw it all up with his "rules".....

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Guest Anonymous

I predict that Rebecca Eleventy!!11!! is now feeling the same elation that Charlie Bucket felt, on learning that the "fifth golden ticket" to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory was a fake.

Don't buy any more Wonka Bars, Rebecca.

Run! Don't walk, run!

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I wonder what would be enough to make these control-freak, "having our children's hearts" parents wake up and smell the coffee??

The Barna Research Group study concluded that divorce rates among conservative Christians are significantly higher than for other faith groups. I have to believe that the artificiality of the "courtship model" contributes mightily to that outcome. We see more and more examples of aging, unmarried, "stay-at-home" daughters and sons: Isaac, Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin, Sarah Maxwell, the Ah-the-Lifer Reins women, the Arndt men. All parroting the parental party line while being soul-murdered.

It is normal for teenagers and young adults to differentiate from their parents, and normal for them to want to know their own minds. These young people need to work up the spine and courage to say "Mom and Dad? I love you, and now I'm going to begin saying NO!"

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Broken Hearts

Posted on August 12, 2012 by Steve

It is with grieving and humble hearts that we come to you letting you know that Joseph and Elizabeth’s wedding has been cancelled. As we have shared our joys and excitement with you over this relationship, we also want you to know of our hurts and sadnesses. Because this involves another family, in respecting their privacy, we don’t feel we should share details or answer questions. We can say that Elizabeth decided Saturday morning that she didn’t have peace about marrying Joseph. She said that it had nothing to do with him but only with her. While we have felt God’s leading in Joseph’s courtship and engagement to Elizabeth, we also accept His leading in closing it down. Now there are two hurting families, and we ask for your prayers for Elizabeth, her family, Joseph, and our family.

The fundy version of, "It's not you, it's me."

Which is just a nicer way of saying, "It's you."

Or perhaps in this case, "It's your dad."

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She looked *so* happy and excited in those engagement photos. She didn't look stunned or scared like Sarah Reith. Her smile was genuine. Something big must have happened to shake her out of it.

Agreed. He looked awkward but she looked genuinely happy. Perhaps she just has a easy smile, but still.

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What I don't get is that the maxwells as a whole have no issue judging all of our marriages that happened outside of this courtship model. So despite the fact that I have 15 years of marriage and not a broken engagement or divorce I can't have possibly been whole for my husband because I dated. (and kissed and had sex).

But christopher and Joseph were/will be whole for nranna/future spouse? No way in hell. I am sure this ripped Joseph's heart out. More than any breakup did for me. Because I believed that dating relationships helped me ready myself for marriage. I learned what I liked, what I was compatible with.

My marriage isn't and never has been perfect. But this focus on purity and all the pieces of your heart remaining intact is bs. We see here it doesn't work.

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She said that it had nothing to do with him but only with her.

Ah yes. The old "it's not you, it's me" line.

Steve just should have left out ANY details regarding who said what to whom. Way to demonize the poor girl, brainiac.

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Looks like its been scrubbed clean.

The posts are still in the cache. I just checked. Click the arrow to the right and look for the word cache to the upper right of that arrow you clicked on.

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Agreed. He looked awkward but she looked genuinely happy. Perhaps she just has a easy smile, but still.

Fundy girls are trained to keep sweet and put on the smiles that mommy and daddy want. I daresay they have a clue about identifying or expressing their true emotions. She was probably thrilled she was fulfilling her parents expectations.

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The same goes for Sarah Reith. In some cultures, the woman (or underaged girl) has NO voice and if she speaks up anyway, the consequences can literally be deadly. At least the fundies haven't reached that level. I hope they never get there.

It's true. Isn't it good that for all the craziness of these people, at least Elizabeth hasn't had acid thrown on her, for example.

This news is really exciting! (This shows how fundie-obsessed I've become when I get excited by breaking news like this.) I find it really interesting. Firstly, I wonder if it was Elizabeth or her parents who were really behind it. Secondly, I wonder why (like everyone), I wonder it's more to do with the controlling nature of the Maxwells or just the fact the couple didn't know each other.

I also wonder with this and the other broken courtship how fundies can't see this is just like dating! Except without the getting to know each other part, and instead of young adults being upset, their whole families having to call off weddings. Why the "need to heal" from the Bates and the "broken heart" from these guys? I thought courtship prevented that because you only courted people you were going to marry! Don't they realise the hypocrisy?

I also think there is a subtle element of blaming when they point out that it was Elizabeth's decision - then again if I got abandoned at the altar I think I'd want people to know it was the other person who did it, not me.

I do like the Muncks, even though they are crazy, they seem so nice and they really have fun with each other. Elizabeth seemed like an interesting girl with the jeans and driving and voting pictures, and there was a story about how she survived a black widow spider bite! I really hope she's able to find someone awesome, when she's ready.

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Since this wasn't a situation where (as far as we know) Elizabeth communicated "Hey, let's slow this thing down, delay the wedding, & wait until it doesn't feel like a couple of strangers with a rush-job marriage," type thing, I agree that taking the (more drastic) measure of cancelling the relationship a week before the wedding likely points to her realizing that Maxwell life was simply not the life for her, and I'm sure the 90 mph courtship/engagement/wedding played a key part in that realization.

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